Affiliation Agreement

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Author Message Steve Gantner New member Username: steve_gantner Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2022 Posted on Friday, July 08, 2022 - 01:19 pm:    I'm curious as to how many Chapters have not signed the affiliate agreement? We are debating it here in St. Louis and have asked a series of questions and are awaiting answers. I am aware of 4 that have not signed. Brian E. Trimble, CDT Senior Member Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt Post Number: 132 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2022 - 05:32 pm:    I was on the Middle Atlantic Region Conference call on Monday and there were a few chapters in the Mid Atlantic Region that hadn't signed and at least one that wasn't going to sign. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 718 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 10:50 am:    Several Florida chapters apparently have not signed. One has received notice from Institute leadership that their connection to the Institute will be terminated September 1 and their membership reassigned. Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA SpecGuy Specifications Consultants www.SpecGuy.com phil@specguy.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1486 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 11:17 am:    I'm out of the loop on this. What is the reason for the affiliate agreement? Is there a benefit to the Chapters? What changes are being forced on the chapters? What do they receive in exchange? Wouldn't most chapters have to change their bylaws before signing and complying with this sort of thing? That is not a quick or easy process for most chapters from what I recall. I doubt that they could get this done by September. Is this suicide by micro-managing? Just curious. Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 11:21 am:    Whoa! David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1946 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 12:07 pm:    If the Institute pulls the charter of the offending chapter, what happens to the funds in the bank account of the chapter? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1487 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 02:20 pm:    Here is some content and Q&A for those like me who are not familiar with what is being mandated. https://cdn.fs.pathlms.com/vgYwh0gbT06X2GEsM2Qm Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 407 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 02:35 pm:    Thank you to the CSI members (our colleagues) who asked really good questions about this big change. David, if the Institute pulls the charter of offending (offensive) chapters, they should very quickly spend their money and throw a giant party to further industry cooperation and goodwill. - John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1886 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 03:03 pm:    As to the funds a chapter owns, they would still be owned by the chapter - a corporation in its own right. My reading of the agreement is that the lapsed chapter just can't use CSI designation and materials, and won't get dues. Theoretically, it seems they could continue to meet and be an industry group outside of the world of CSI (though they may need a name change). I let my membership lapse after I retired so I'm out of touch with this. What do folks think is the main sticking point here? Is it uniform dues? I didn't see much else in the agreement that would cause such a large degree of concern. Small chapter survival may be tough, I can see, though I don't know how this would be different in the new agreement. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1947 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 05:53 pm:    Being an officer of our chapter, I read the Affliation Agreement. It is basically a franchise agreement where chapters agree to follow the directions of Institute. Wouldn't the Agreement have to be signed by the chapter president every year? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1888 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2022 - 04:23 pm:    I think the agreement states how often it must be signed - it may be self-renewing. As to who signs, it is probably the president. However, the corporate by-laws, and any corporate resolutions passed by the board, will be the determiner of who can legally sign any contract on behalf of the corporation. Usually this is established by the role rather than the individual. For example, the clerk may be empowered to sign. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 719 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Friday, August 12, 2022 - 09:22 am:    There is a three year continuity clause in the agreement, so even if a chapter moved to terminate the agreement once signed, it would be in effect for three years. Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA SpecGuy Specifications Consultants www.SpecGuy.com phil@specguy.com Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2022 - 01:02 pm:    Well... The chapter to which I had HOPED to transition, got semi-suspended for not signing the affiliation agreement by the deadline. Complete suspension is coming soon. They national has no interest, I think, in *actually* having local chapters. Local chapters have been struggling because of the "bowling alone" phenomenon. And under the guise of "helping," the national organization did a lot of crap that didn't really help. And now... They have started on-line things that helps make it harder to engage people in local chapter programming. And the whole credentialing thing is such a money sucker: every year, I (well, my employer) is shelling out money for the dues AND the credential. Every year because I have the CDT, CCS, and the CCCA. Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2022 - 09:21 am:    Sigh... Before they banish a section for not signing the affiliation agreement, they banish chapter leaders from the leader pages of the website. However, they are not exactly lightning quick at reinstating that once the chapter DOES sign the affiliation agreement. It's been two weeks since we signed their damned agreement and we still have not had our access to the leader sections reinstated. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 829 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2022 - 05:59 pm:    @Loretta: Did you email Liz about the issue. She has resolved all my issues very quickly Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2022 - 01:30 pm:    Apparently, my chapter president has been emailing her several times. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 357 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2022 - 03:45 pm:    My chapter is not signing the agreement and our chapter president indicated that at least two other Chapters somewhat close to us are also not signing. So if I would continue my CSI membership, my 'home' chapter will now be at either end of the state. My chapter sent out a chapter survey out to all chapter members and based on the responses they received back, the Board voted unanimously to not sign. One of the last emails from the Chapter President had a list of about 10 items that they disagreed with regarding the affiliation demand from the Institute. I think the email that came from national was disingenuous to a degree as it stated how they have been attempting to work with chapter leadership to get the affiliation agreement signed, whereas Chapter leadership is saying national is not trying to work with them at all. It's either sign it or you are gone. Personally, I don't plan to renew my membership if they yank the Chapter's charter. Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 830 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2022 - 05:10 pm:    We had an attorney review our agreement and, although there are areas that aren't in the favor or chapters/regions, at the end of the day, if a chapter/region wants to continue to exist, then sign the agreement. What is there to gain by not signing? Focus on the big picture! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2295 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2022 - 05:31 pm:    Exactly, Robin. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1965 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2022 - 01:36 pm:    I just learned today that two chapters in the my region have been dissolved because they refused to sign the afiliation agreement. :-( David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 833 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2022 - 01:38 pm:    well, they (the chapters) showed them (national). Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1527 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2022 - 02:08 pm:    Sounds to me like CSI as a workable, grassroots organization, has died and gone centralized. Not what I joined and worked so hard for. How does membership benefit from this? Whose benefit is this for? Does CSI mean anything at this point? Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2022 - 07:55 am:    They are quick to dissolve, but what if you WANT to start a chapter? (in an area where it was dissolved/) John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1900 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2022 - 02:01 pm:    A few years after I retired I let all my various memberships lapse. It seems to me that many professional organizations use the model of paying for the national membership which includes the local chapter. This was the case with AIA and the local chapter, BSA. I don't know enough to weigh in on the affiliation agreement's particular terms. Maybe, though, the change in structure would work fine, even though common practices - especially around meals - may have to change. Seems extreme to disband without the effort of trying to make it work. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1966 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2022 - 10:36 am:    In light of new information, let me clarify my previous post. I learned recently the two chapters, Idaho and Capital (Oregon), in the Northwest Region had been struggling before the home chapter/affiliation agreement. So the recent national organizational changes may or may not have contributed to their demise. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Monday, October 24, 2022 - 09:44 am:    I think that cleaning house by forcing the affiliation agreement when they did -- during and on the tail of the pandemic -- really helped push chapters into becoming defunct. There were two years of chapters, who were probably already struggling prior to the pandemic, trying to pivot towards... something. And then the national absolutely, positively, HAD to have the affiliation agreements signed by what really was an arbitrarily set date. A MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better rollout of the plan could have been put into place. It was a difficult two years. Instead of reaching out PERSONALLY, chapter leaders email boxes were littered with even more emails. National should have worked more closely with Regions to find a way to handhold local chapters in the transition better. I think it the process was handled very poorly. John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1901 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, October 24, 2022 - 01:42 pm:    Loretta, that makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, it seems to me that CSI could have helped local chapters with tools and ideas to survive those couple of years. That could have taken a lot of forms, including facilitating joint online activities between multiple chapters. Jonathan Miller, FCSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: jmma_specs Post Number: 28 Registered: 04-2009 Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 - 04:54 pm:    I believe issue this began with an ANSI certification requirement that national's board had decided to pursue. It required a laundry list of good business practices required for chapters of the national organization. Personally, I think the communication on this was not good and some chapter leaders may have done an "Emily Latilla" impersonation without being corrected. The Maine Chapter leadership actually dissolved its corporation and disbanded. I can only hope that a better dialogue can occur. Oh... and please send your questions to the Board Chair, Cam Featherstonhaugh, he answered mine pretty well. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1967 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 11:43 am:    At the National Conference I spoke with a few disgruntled members. Most actually thought the affliation agreement was okay idea or at least they did not totally disagree with it. Their main issue was how the agreement was thrust upon them as a "Sign the paper or we will kill your chapter!" extortion tactic. They told me how CSI talks that it is a membership-oriented association that exists to serve its members yet walks as a top-down oligarchy that ignores the desires of the membership. Kind of a "You don't know what is best for you. We know what is best for you." approach. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2022 - 03:50 pm:    David Axt: What you heard PLUS doing this during/on the heels of the pandemic. Bad timing, but they should've learned to roll a little better with the punches. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1969 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2022 - 01:00 pm:    My Chapter's Board vote to approve and sign the Chapter Affliation Agreement. We figured that if we wanted to play ball we would have to abide by their rules. When I first read over the Chapter Agreement I thought it was nothing more than a francise agreement. That is to say, "Independently owned and operated" but with corporation oversight. The second thing I though of was the Boy Scouts of America and how a few bad scout leaders are causing the whole organization into bankruptcy and lawsuits. I figured with this was a reason for the urgency to have chapters on board with this agreement. It would protect Institute from chapters' or chapter members' malfeasance. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2022 - 01:28 pm:    I don't have a problem with the affiliation agreement, and the fact that chapters are forced to sign it. My problem was with the implementation of it. I think it was done very poorly. Most people who volunteer at the chapter level of CSI have very busy lives -- they have work and family obligations, and, understandably, those take priority over CSI. While we may all be adults, this process that meant sign or be cast into oblivion should have involved more "handholding." Instead, it was "sign or die." And if you missed the deadline, the plug was pulled. (And they were not exactly quick to put it back once you did sign.) We all get a million emails. Reaching out to chapters solely via email for something that has serious ramifications was poor planning and abysmal execution. Top that off with the pandemic, which severely exacerbated national's poor planning and execution. National should have reached out to regions on how to reach out to chapters on the process. By phone, in person, but not only by email. Which is what we got. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 834 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2022 - 01:32 pm:    I’ve seen a lot of postings, emails, discussions etc about the “changing CSI” and how “this isn’t the CSI I joined years ago”. So, first off, this is my opinion on the topic. YMMV I agree with the comments about the methodology and timing on these changes. I think it put an undue burden on exhausted volunteers. I also realize there were some valid reasons for requiring the Affiliate Agreements and the restructuring is an attempt to streamline the organization and better serve members. That said, I really don’t understand the grumblings that, “CSI has changed” or “CSI no longer cares about the members”. Of course CSI has changed! Doesn’t everything change? In the 25 years that I have been a CSI member, our world has changed dramatically (I was so bummed when my corner Blockbuster closed!) and so has the construction industry. The way we create construction documents, the ways we communicate, methods of construction… everything has changed! As I was thinking about all this, I had the epiphany that not only have I changed (both personally and professionally), but my reasons for being a CSI member have changed dramatically. When I joined CSI 25 years ago, I was a graduate student, just learning about architecture and specifications. As a student just starting my career, I needed CSI for the education and to meet mentors. I would attend the National Convention and couldn’t believe I got two free drink tickets and food at the welcome reception (Best. Day. Ever!) When I started my own firm, I NEEDED CSI to develop relationships with product representatives. I believed the “CCS” credential would give me credibility. The mentors I met through CSI provided professional support. Fast forward to today and I no longer NEED CSI in the same way. Today, I have one foot in retirement and so CSI provides a venue for me to now give back to the industry. I enjoy nurturing friendships of over 20+ years at Chapter Meetings, Region Conferences and National Conferences (I thought the conference in Denver was fantastic). I am now the mentor and I can give of my time and knowledge to improve the industry. In other words, I no longer ask what CSI can do for me, but rather, what can I do for CSI? If I have changed, and my relationship with CSI has changed, why would I think the organization wouldn’t have changed as well? Is change a bad thing? I propose it’s worse not to change. As far as I can tell, there isn’t anything in the Affiliate Agreements that prevents chapters and regions from holding the types of events the component believes is best for its members. I question the statement that CSI is no longer able to operate at a “Grassroots” level. I can still organize Region conferences that offer educational and networking opportunities that our Region enjoys with autonomy, if I maintain the brand standards (this is just plain common sense with any brand). The Agreement ensures that the chapters/regions are all operating as legitimate entities. In our litigious society, this is smart business practice. I don’t think anyone benefited from the components that refused to sign the agreement. Seems like a short sighted and “cutting of your nose to spite your face”. Our region wants to remain a part of CSI so we can continue our mission to educate the construction industry, which, in turn, benefits all of us! Do I love everything about the changes? Of course not. But, I’m choosing to roll with them and focus on the things I can control and can contribute. robin (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2022 - 01:26 pm:    I’ve seen a lot of postings, emails, discussions etc about the “changing CSI” and how “this isn’t the CSI I joined years ago”. So, first off, this is my opinion on the topic. YMMV I agree with the comments about the methodology and timing on these changes. I think it put an undue burden on exhausted volunteers. I also realize there were some valid reasons for requiring the Affiliate Agreements and the restructuring is an attempt to streamline the organization and better serve members. That said, I really don’t understand the grumblings that, “CSI has changed” or “CSI no longer cares about the members”. Of course CSI has changed! Doesn’t everything change? In the 25 years that I have been a CSI member, our world has changed dramatically (I was so bummed when my corner Blockbuster closed!) and so has the construction industry. The way we create construction documents, the ways we communicate, methods of construction… everything has changed! As I was thinking about all this, I had the epiphany that not only have I changed (both personally and professionally), but my reasons for being a CSI member have changed dramatically. When I joined CSI 25 years ago, I was a graduate student, just learning about architecture and specifications. As a student just starting my career, I needed CSI for the education and to meet mentors. I would attend the National Convention and couldn’t believe I got two free drink tickets and food at the welcome reception (Best. Day. Ever!) When I started my own firm, I NEEDED CSI to develop relationships with product representatives. I believed the “CCS” credential would give me credibility. The mentors I met through CSI provided professional support. Fast forward to today and I no longer NEED CSI in the same way. Today, I have one foot in retirement and so CSI provides a venue for me to now give back to the industry. I enjoy nurturing friendships of over 20+ years at Chapter Meetings, Region Conferences and National Conferences (I thought the conference in Denver was fantastic). I am now the mentor and I can give of my time and knowledge to improve the industry. In other words, I no longer ask what CSI can do for me, but rather, what can I do for CSI? If I have changed, and my relationship with CSI has changed, why would I think the organization wouldn’t have changed as well? Is change a bad thing? I propose it’s worse not to change. As far as I can tell, there isn’t anything in the Affiliate Agreements that prevents chapters and regions from holding the types of events the component believes is best for its members. I question the statement that CSI is no longer able to operate at a “Grassroots” level. I can still organize Region conferences that offer educational and networking opportunities that our Region enjoys with autonomy, if I maintain the brand standards (this is just plain common sense with any brand). The Agreement ensures that the chapters/regions are all operating as legitimate entities. In our litigious society, this is smart business practice. I don’t think anyone benefited from the components that refused to sign the agreement. Seems like a short sighted and “cutting of your nose to spite your face”. Our region wants to remain a part of CSI so we can continue our mission to educate the construction industry, which, in turn, benefits all of us! Do I love everything about the changes? Of course not. But, I’m choosing to roll with them and focus on the things I can control and can contribute. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2296 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 28, 2022 - 10:28 am:    Instead of posting your concerns, disagreements, and questions here, post them on CSI's forum page or write to Cam. Contact a board member. Post where you can get answers. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 835 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, October 28, 2022 - 02:25 pm:    There has been months and months of questions, discussions, grumblings, threats to "leave CSI" etc etc. At some point, everyone needs to decide if they want to accept the changes and focus their energy on moving forward. Too many valuable volunteer hours have already been spent on this issue! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2297 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 28, 2022 - 04:13 pm:    Agreed, Robin.