Alternatives to PVDF, FEVE, and pretr...

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Author Message ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1445 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2022 - 07:44 pm:    So I watched https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Waters_(2019_film) and found it compelling and obviously disturbing. I have to wonder about future fallout about other 'teflon' based products like most of the AAMA 2605 coatings and worse, the chromium pretreatments that seem to be only things that actually work when applying PVDF to aluminum. Any thoughts on how to specify these products and still be environmentally sensitive? I'm at a loss to find anything that works as well but I have no idea what, if any, precautions the manufacturers are taking to protect air and water resources. It's not like the EPA cares to protect us and I don't get the feeling like the manufacturers care much either, but that's just my opinion based on past performance (watch the film). So far Longboard seems to be the only group that has found a way to apply PVDF or FEVE without using chromium pretreatment on aluminum but I don't know what their system is. Of course I have not seen longterm installations of their product so I could be wrong. Other options seem to have left a trail of failures in their wake based on what I've read. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 402 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 - 09:13 am:    Ken, I'm so excited about this post!! Warning: I have a long response. I recommend Dark Waters (PFAS) and Erin Brockovich (Chromium 6) all the time, to help people understand more about toxic chemicals. During Covid lockdowns, it seemed more likely that Architects and Designers would watch Netflix than read technical data about toxic chemicals. Okay, that's true all the time. Erin Brockovich is from 2000. It holds up well as film, and we still have to explain what is hexavalent chromium (chromium VI) to the AEC community. For PVDF, Sherwin Williams (Valspar) Fluoropon Pure is a red list free coating, which does not require CrVI as a pretreatment, although most manufacturers seem to do it anyway. Examples: Kawneer uses Fluoropon Pure with CrVI pretreatment, but Industrial Louvers Inc. (ILI) uses Fluoropon Pure without. That's why Kawneer advertises Declare labels, but it's only for their anodized products, while ILI products are all Declare as standard. For more information here, contact Lisa Britton, sustainability champion at ILI. I think the real problem is the PFAS, which is integral to both PVDF and FEVE coatings. While Dupont and 3M have known about the negative health effects of PFAS since the 1970s(?), the general public is just figuring it out. We need to eliminate the use of PFAS in the building industry. What are we going to do when everything with a PVDF coating is considered hazardous waste? The absolutely first thing we can do is stop adding PFAS stain- and water-repellent coatings to carpets, fabrics, and upholstery. These coatings are added at the end of manufacturing and are easy to avoid. PFAS is defined by its carbon-fluorine molecular bonds, which are incredibly strong and long lasting, hence the "forever chemicals" nickname. Today industry groups claim there are only 4,000 or so different types of PFAS in use. The US EPA thinks it's either 9,000 or 1.8 million. So obviously we need a class-based approach to this problem, rather than researching each chemical, one at a time. We measure PFAS in the parts per billion, so don't believe a manufacturer who says it's a negligible amount. Evidence shows that there is no safe PFAS, none. PFAS in our water supply is a huge problem, especially if you live near military bases and industrial facilities, which is almost everywhere. We're currently looking at state by state legislation, which will be super confusing for commerce. Maine has just passed a ban on intentionally added PFAS for everything, effective 2030, but requiring disclosure in 2023. Last week there was a class action lawsuit in Illinois against McDonalds for exposing customers to PFAS without their knowledge. 3M has already paid $850 million to the State of Minnesota for polluting the thousand lakes, and it's not enough. Next Wednesday, our local Boston CSI chapter is hosting a presentation about PFAS. It's a combination of in person and virtual, so you can attend too. Please join us! Here's the link: https://csiboston.org/meetinginfo.php?id=43&ts=1648728068 If you want more science information, let me know. I have lots of great resources. Okay, I'll just list a few off the top of my head: https://pfas-exchange.org/2021/04/09/silent-spring-institute-continues-pfas-testing-on-cape-cod/ https://www.sixclasses.org/videos/PFAS https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2020-2-march-april/protect/americas-overwhelming-pfas-problem So Ken, thanks for asking! - Lisa Goodwin Robbins Architect/Specifier, Kalin Associates Chair, Board of Directors, Silent Spring Institute Edward J Dueppen, RA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP Senior Member Username: edueppen Post Number: 81 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2022 - 06:21 pm:    Wow, there is so much to learn in this industry! And this is yet another time I am glad to have the 4Specs community! While I was vaguely aware of the ubiquitous nature and dangers of PFAS, I had no idea it is present in PVDF coatings. It sure is a bummer. But thanks for bringing it to my attention. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 564 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2022 - 04:37 pm:    Is anodizing any safer? Perhaps if it could have only mechanical finish, like M42 Fine matte, nondirectional textured mechanical finish? Unfortunately most architectural manufacturers do not seem to disclose which kind of anodizing process they use. The chemical finishes can include the use of chromate and/or fluoride which surely results in a lot of hazardous waste material to be handled somehow. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 565 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2022 - 04:53 pm:    Ed, it's not just what is in the coatings, but also what byproducts are used to make the coatings, and how we are going to "properly" handle those? Maybe encapsulate them in a huge disposal cell like Weldon Spring but do it from the beginning? Maybe it's a good time to rethink, why do we have to coat so many things anyway? Just use an unfinished corrosion-resistant base metal? I know, $$$. Well, count the enormous health costs and environmental cleanup from production of these materials into that equation, and all the recurring maintenance of prep work and recoating every few years, and corrosion-resistant base metals seem like a great idea. There are environmental costs with mining the metals and refining them too, of course. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 406 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2022 - 04:57 pm:    Chris, I think anodizing is less toxic than PVDF, but you're right that most manufacturers are not transparent about their processes. Perhaps a coil coater will chime in? - Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 566 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2022 - 05:15 pm:    Coil coating frequently uses PVDF for the coating materials, so we're still talking about the same types of chemicals and byproducts. It's just an application process specific to sheet metal, rather than application processes used to coat aluminum extrusions, which I think are usually factory spray-applied then baked on, but are sometimes electrostatically powder-coated. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1485 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2022 - 10:16 am:    From what I've been told, most current fluoropolymers claim that they no longer are produced by generating harmful forms of PFAS or PFOA or by disposing them into the environment. Still, my understanding is that unlike liquid-applied PVDF, powder coated FEVE allows almost complete reclamation of coating materials that do not end up on the metal. Both are capable of producing AAMA 2605 quality coatings. Additionally powder-coating does not require the use of solvents (and yes, water is a solvent that needs to be reclaimed and cleaned). I would hope that applicators use appropriate, environmentally friendly application systems but have no idea who does or doesn't. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1488 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 01:05 pm:    Some possible good news? https://theconversation.com/how-to-destroy-a-forever-chemical-scientists-are-discovering-ways-to-eliminate-pfas-but-this-growing-global-health-problem-isnt-going-away-soon-188965?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 408 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 02:32 pm:    Ken, I've seen a couple early science projects attempting to destroy PFAS chemicals in the environment. Very cool, but none of them will address the PFAS we already have in our human bodies. When will we ever stop putting harmful stuff in the environment and pretending we can fix it later? #wishfulthinking #turnoffthetap - Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2289 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 05:33 pm:    From the article: "Humans have a long history of trying to solve problems and making things worse." No kidding.