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Author Message David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1887 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 02:28 pm:    I used to heavily rely on local building product representatives to help write specifications and educate me. I found their knowledge of their products/materials and the industry extremely valuable. Sometimes I would have these representatives review my specifications. Now it seems those days are long gone. Older more experienced representatives have retired, died, or moved into another industry. Most of the representatives now are inexperienced and do not really know their products or the industry. Many companies no longer have representatives. It is more challenging to write good specifications without these knowledgeable people. What has been your experience? David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 846 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 03:06 pm:    A little of that, but not too bad. Honestly, maybe I am just very fortunate, but the southwest region here in Southern California has top notch representation in the majority of products I specify, and I rely on my reps quite a lot. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1409 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 04:55 pm:    Still able to track down reps for many products but certainly fewer than in the past. Thankful that there are those in my old stomping grounds still willing to take my calls when I can't find my own local rep. I am also finding that some manufacturers are providing access to technical people if I am able to track them down and don't mind waiting a day or two for answers. I'm relying more on my Arc-US, CSI MSR, and Opal SpArc contacts so I am very grateful that those venues are still viable. Brian E. Trimble, CDT Senior Member Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt Post Number: 128 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 05:45 pm:    There are definitely a lot less of them than in the past. And since there has been a lot of consolidation in each industry, companies have eliminated some of the duplication. Finally, some companies have decided they could rely on websites that contain technical information and don't need to have that personal touch. Too bad, because that's how a lot of us do business. James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 328 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 08:55 am:    Ken, when I do talk to a technical representative I find them to be very helpful. Yes, they have other things to do but usually get back to me within a day or two. It's not their fault (or even mine) that everyone seems to need crucial information "yesterday" if you get my drift. Brian, you've pinpointed a looming problem with manufacturers relying on their web sites. There is no way a web site can contain information that is always helpful for some particular condition. That is where a one-on-one conversation with someone who knows his or her product is mandatory whether that person is local or across the country. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1889 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 02:24 pm:    A little over 9 months ago there was a local building product representative, for a major paint manufacturer, that just disappeared. She stopped returning emails and her phone could not take any more messages. I finally called the previous representative, who was retired, to ask him about the whereabouts of the representative. The old representative did not know but gave me the phone number of his boss in the Midwest (I'm on the West Coast). I called the boss and he said the representative was out on medical leave. I asked if the company had plans to replace her either permanently or temporarily. He said no. I asked him when she would be back. He said that he did not know. I feel sorry for the representative and hope she heals quickly but think it is irresponsible for the paint company not to find a subsitute. This is especially true for paint products which are complex. So I am switching my specifications over to another paint company and/or using MPI numbers. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Melissa J Aguiar Senior Member Username: melissajaguiar Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2015 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 02:59 pm:    David, I transferred to MPI numbers a couple of years ago. I thought it would be of help as well. I will still get questions on what is MPI, and what products do I want to use (even though it is clearly stated). I loved the days when I could state a BOD. Every project is a rainbow. Ask anyone whom has ever worked on CA. James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 329 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 03:00 pm:    David, I would find your experience with the paint company difficult to believe except something similar happened to me. What are these companies thinking? I'm in the process, along with two other specification writers in my firm, of preparing a presentation for the less experienced employees about what is required from the project team members to give to the specification writer so he or she can prepare a specification. Obviously, that would be good information about the products selected. Where else is that inexperienced intern or architect going to obtain that information, to a useful degree, besides from a knowledgeable product representative. Unless some think I am trying to get others to do my job, my job is not product selection for a particular project although I am willing to assist. I do not design or make selections (been there, done that). I specify what has been selected and I believe I am fulfilling my obligation as a professional to educate the next generation in what they need to know and how they can get that knowledge. I will retire someday after all and there is a lottery drawing this evening. :-) Robert Hale (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, October 01, 2021 - 12:14 pm:    I am a regional manager for Evonik. I know David and would like to ask a few questions of you folks. I am currently having trouble finding local reps in areas that I have older reps retiring. I like the technical line idea and would be interested in feedback on your experience with such a system? Also, honestly, would you open a cold call email of introduction? This is definitely a problem for the manufacturers as well and together maybe we can find a better solution. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1415 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, October 01, 2021 - 12:51 pm:    Robert, having enjoyed a great relationship with the rep who introduced me to Evonik in the DC Metro area many years ago I am still specifying your products when needed. I appreciate having local reps in the Charlotte area that are knowledgeable and on whom I can rely. Other than reps with whom I have a relationship, this website is my daily link to manufacturers. I don't know what I would do without Colin and 4specs.com. Frankly I sometimes glance at cold call emails but more-often-than-not they end up deleted or ignored. The best way to get to me are through local, regional, and national CSI events and, even better, via CSI MSR, Arc-US, and Opal SpArc since those are the only times I am able to set aside time to sit down and talk about products. Finding good reps isn't easy. Networking at CSI events and the other venues I listed may be the best way to meet people in the industry who can share their experiences and possibly help you meet the people you want to hire. I would consider going to University job fairs and talk with design and CM students. You may be surprised to find some hidden gems out there. Jon Buss (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, October 01, 2021 - 08:01 pm:    Our company is new to the door hardware industry. www.RestroomLock.com We've redesigned the conventional grip and twist door handle and finding reps hasn't been easy. As noted in other comments, the few reps that are still actively connecting manufacturers with specifiers are not looking for more lines to add. With all the Covid restrictions for travel and outside sales activities, it seems 2020 was a terrible time to introduce a new product. How do companies locate specifiers directly? John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1864 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2021 - 01:30 pm:    Do you think the power of video conferencing and "well-stocked" websites, combined with super-knowledgeable reps located anywhere, could provide a higher level of service than is now provided? Would manufacturers actually embrace that? Rosa Cheney Senior Member Username: rdcaia Post Number: 23 Registered: 07-2018 Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2021 - 03:10 pm:    John, Yes, I could imagine something like that working. But it needs to be quick and immediate, like calling up your local rep. For instance, I could see the 'chat' feature that pops up on some websites as being a super-useful and super-convenient way to reach a technical representative...on-demand. It seems easy for a manufacturer to make something like that happen, but I have a hard time imagining that the actual execution would be any different than calling up a mfr and trying to get a hold of a technical person...i.e., hit or miss. Other than the fact that the local rep is the de-facto person to reach if you have a question, I think the only other thing we lose if we move to virtual reps is being able to hold and look at samples while the rep talks. During Covid, we've had tech reps send boxes of samples ahead of a virtual meeting, and it's a fairly close equivalent to talking in person, but it's not 100% the same. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 847 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 11:49 am:    Jon Buss, for your product, in California specifically, you would need to start with Building Officials and agencies like DSA and OSHPD. I would not be allowed to use your product on any of my projects due to our exit code requirements for door levers to have a return on it (in theory, to prevent snagging on a person's clothes as they try to exit in an emergency) Jon Buss (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 12:28 pm:    Nathan, thank you for the excellent suggestions of DSA and OSHPD as potential building management companies that might see the value in our new product. The California References Standard requires levers to have a return on them so they do not snag upon egress. The UP LoK is fully compliant, and many get confused by this. The handle is orientated in the OPPOSITE direction than conventional grip and twist handles, so there is no possibility anything will catch on the handle itself. Take another look, we actually make this an installation tip here: https://restroomlock.com/installation/ (top left of the page) Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 627 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 08:03 pm:    I value local reps who know the local contractors, AHJ, competitive market, etc and turn up for CSI meetings, etc. Yet bemoaning the loss of local reps is as pointless as bemoaning the loss of hardcopy Sweets Catalogs. The dead tree edition became obsolete when fax and low cost long distance phone calls plus overnight delivery became practical. None of the building product manufacturers to whom I consult have local reps. Instead, they have product experts just a phone call away, video calls, PDF drawing transmittal, and a host of technical aides online. The inhouse experts are trained in product knowledge and customer service, have all sorts of inhouse back-up (plus me), and are dedicated to working with specifiers and designers. When they have too, they jump on an airplane to go to a job site (but that is even being replaced by video inspections). In some ways, it is a throwback to an older model of sales. I did my architectural internship in a small town that was hours away from the nearest big city or regional hub. A visit from a sales rep was a rare occurrence. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2022 - 03:10 pm:    David, Is it one of the big 3-4 manufacturers? (simple yes/no, since I wouldn't want to ask you to "slander" any of the manufacturers by telling us who it is ) With paint, especially seems important to have local tech reps for field QC, and in case of failures to pinpoint the problem. Hard to do that entirely by virtual meeting. I've been away from the forum for a bit. Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2022 - 11:30 am:    A Long Story of Manufacturing and Why Great Customer Service Disappears Once upon a time… Somebody had a great idea for a product for the A/E/C consumer. It was a really great idea for a really great product that would be loved by engineers, architects, contractors, and the owners they designed and built things for. And this person with the really great idea was eventually able to secure the wherewithal and funding to manufacturer that product. It was a Great Product! People loved it! This person went from being someone with a great idea to being somebody with a great product to being the CEO of a company that made Great Products. The CEO hired people who were experienced in the industry that his Great Product served. They believed in the Great Product and in the mission of the Great Product company. And then, after many years of building up towards a fantastic market position, one of the following things happened: 1. The CEO hired a someone from outside the industry (who we will call Mr. Snake-in-the-Grass) for an upper-level role in the company that was within Mr. SITG’s area of expertise. But Mr. SITG had no experience in the industry that the Great Product served. And no background into the engineering and design that made the Great Product a great product. Mr. SITG managed to take over the company, force the old CEO into retirement, and focused on how to make the Great Product more inexpensively and significantly improve profit margins. This included replacing a lot of knowledgeable people with less knowledgeable people (because they were cheaper), outsourcing manufacturing overseas (because it was cheaper), and eventually, Great Product became at best, Mediocre Product (but it was cheaper!) 2. The Great Product company really made an amazing impact on its industry. Users loved it! Everyone loved it! The company was making money! Employees were happy! But a bigger multinational company, the Big International Group, Inc. saw this company. And WANTED it! BIG, Inc. made CEO an offer he couldn’t refuse. It may not have been like the one Don Corleone made Jack Woltz. But sometimes, it is really difficult to turn down enough moolah that you, your children, and your grandchildren will be set for life. BIG, Inc. made THAT kind of offer, and the CEO signed on the dotted line. No major changes were made right away, but eventually, change did ripple throughout the company. The C-Suite of BIG, Inc., (who for the most were all lawyers and MBAs with no background in engineering or design) hired people with business and marketing degrees to sell their products, instead of people with a background in engineering and/or design. Sometimes those people were fantastic! They learned a lot about the product and were as knowledgeable as if they majored in Great Product in college. And sometimes, they essentially just saw themselves as salespeople, and that they could be selling anything. 3. CEO decided it was getting close to time to retire. He was tired, he lived a long and good life, and just wanted to relax. He had always thought about the business as a family legacy. He brought his kids into the company when they were young, and they all worked for some time or another for the company. But one child wanted to be an artist, another child wanted to be an underwater archeologist. The third child wanted to be an organic beekeeper. None had any interest in engineering, manufacturing, or business. CEO held on a little while longer thinking maybe one of the grandkids would be interested. But one wound up doing time for trafficking large amounts of illegal substances, and another was more interested in hanging out on the beach, surfing. CEO had never thought this would be an issue, and so never put any effort in trying to groom a successor to him from outside of his family -- from among one of his loyal longtime employees. One day, CEO keeled over from a heart attack. It was too late to deal with succession at that point. The kids had no interest in running the company and sold it to the first person waving a checkbook. Who promptly closed down the company, firing the employees, and liquidating the assets… Another company bought the name, the patents, and some other stuff. And started manufacturing a POS product that looked like Great Product, served the same industry as Great Product, with the same name as Great Product. But it really was, well, a piece of… David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1905 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, April 04, 2022 - 12:43 pm:    Rags to riches to rags in three generations. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1600 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 21, 2023 - 01:23 pm:    Loretta, you forgot about the guy who brought over a really great technology from Europe and, for awhile, made a real, positive impact on the industry. Many people reached out to him, asking to partner or franchise with him but he had the Sony Betamax mentality and kept it to himself. As one person he could only service a limited clientele despite broad demand. Eventually someone else developed an even better technology and made it available to everyone who was willing to learn how to properly use it. It is becoming the industry standard while the older technology is now all but forgotten. Sad.