| Author |
Message |
Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS
Senior Member
Username: dbrinley
Post Number: 104
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 04:28 pm: |    |
Is it me, or has there been a general degradation of the quality of product representation lately?
Every other guy (I swear) wants to argue (!) or is just plain negative about his competitors' stuff. Plastic fiber 'supplemental reinforcement' guys trash the steel fiber 'supplemental reinforcement' guys. And the technical support guys (even engineers) are negative selling now!!!
I utilize information from guys I trust when I write a new section. Later some joker whom I've never heard of tries to convince me (after I've done twenty hours of work on a topic) that the guys whose information I relied on are irresponsible douche-bags whose living is made duping ignorant people like me.
9 out of 10 new people I see are people I don't want to build a 'sell-buy' relationship with. And 90% of the 10% don't know diddley about their product(s). Some seem to be more familiar with their competitors applications than their own.
When I was a product rep (yes, it's a sad story) there was NO NEGATIVE SELLING. Nobody at that (lousy - oops nondisclosure agreement - "wonderful!") company put up with it. We could tell our competitors that they sucked, but we couldn't tell our customers why our competitors sucked. They were straight up about it. We talk about benefits and quantify those where it's possible to. Comparisons aren't bridges; they differentiate. If you want to differentiate yourself, you'd say that everybody else sucks. Then, you've definately differentiated yourself.
Has it gotten to where we specifiers have to start being 'buyers' with all those hassles just to get useful information? |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 402
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 04:37 pm: | |
I don't know if it has gotten worse, but I have noticed that this problem seems to be rampant in certain product areas. Examples: cellulosic v. glass fiber insulation; concrete masonry v. drywall; cementitious SFRM v. fiberous. Let a few of these folks near each other and it's like metallic sodium and water. (Or matter and anti-matter if you're a trekkie.) I could try a rant about the breakdown of civility in our society in general, but that would get a bit far off base. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 479
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 04:39 pm: | |
Doug,
I have not noticed this among long time reps, whether they recently changed companies or not. Those that have been in the business awhile don't seem to do this.
But, I have noticed that new reps tend to do this more frequently...new to being a rep that is. Its always easier to say something negative about the competition than elaborate on the benefits of a product. Maybe that is part of it. And I have definitely seen an increase in the number of people getting into the business.
On the other hand, there are companies that seem to encourage all their reps to be that way - our multiple locations and talking to others around the country I see the negative policy sort of corporate wide.
Those new to the business do tend to come around more often.
William |
Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS
Senior Member
Username: dbrinley
Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 05:00 pm: | |
William,
Thanks, those are valuable insights. I too find the long time reps tend to not 'negative sell'. We know each other and we say what's on our minds.
I don't see many young reps mostly because we have a very conservative A/E environment doing 90% municipal work; we are three times as many transportation engineers than architects; and we operate 'below the radar'. Not being an AIA member firm has its' advantages. (I don't want to let the word out though). OOPS
Many of the guys I'm having to interrupt should "know better by now". Perhaps other specifiers aren't sufficiently emphatic about them "knocking it off". |
Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 239
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 05:06 pm: | |
I agree that negative selling seems to be mostly the younger and less experienced sales reps. Its easy to call them up short by asking : "if you were selling AGAINST your product, what would you say?" If they can't do that, then they don't know their industry well enough to provide much useful information. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 122
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 09:10 am: | |
On the threads below (where Colin posts columns published by other others around the country) are several columns by Michael Chambers which are primarily addressed to reps. I was browsing those threads yesterday and thinking maybe I should have a stack of reprints to hand out to rookies who call on me. Come to think of it, I could pass some out to some of the more experienced reps I see as well.
In more than one column, he emphasizes listening and talking about "Use and Application" instead of "Features and Benefits".
Every once in a while I have to morph into my former "scary associate dean self" with some of these guys. Sometimes I don't see them again, but they usually rep products I'm not too interested in specifying anyway. |
David J. Wyatt
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 09:47 am: | |
Mr. Brinley has raised a great topic. The discussions could bring out points that will help everyone, including the product reps.
I agree with Anne and William that the "negative selling" people tend to be younger. They also tend to come from a highly-competitive direct sales background, such as home improvement businesses or retail. In those situations, success is based on how many sales you can close in the presence of the buyer. This sometimes cultivates bad habits, like negative selling techniques.
The adjustment to architectural representation is often difficult for these people. The immediate gratification of selling is gone. Many don't last and return to the direct sales world.
The astute ones quickly read the effects of their presentations and alter their techniques to become more successful.
Specifiers can learn a lot about effective communication by paying close attention to the reps with talent and skill. They can also help improve the industry by exercising patience and encouraging the new but talented product reps to refine their knowledge and re-direct their energies in positive ways.
Once trust is established between a rep and a spec writer, real knowledge starts being exchanged and both benefit greatly. |
Marty Sweeney, CSI
Senior Member
Username: martysweeney
Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 09:56 am: | |
As a product rep, I couldn't agree with Peter more. Michael Chambers is a great resource! I've recommended his articles to many associates and gone to that well many times myself.
There is no excuse for negative selling. Aside from being poor form and unethical, I have never seen it have the desired effect. |
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza
Post Number: 129
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 05:00 pm: | |
Peter's last sentence above is particularly interesting. In addition to the issue of young, undertrained reps, there are a few folks in the industry I might label "rogue manufacturers." Their reps don't participate in CSI. They don't regularly call on specifiers, except to try and substitute in on projects. Their product literature never quite answers all the questions; in fact, they may modify ASTM tests to make their products appear superior, or select non-standard tests so that you are unable to match up their performance with their competitors'. They show up in regions with marketing blitzes every few years. And when there are problems on projects with their materials, they are the fault of the subcontractor installers. All in all, their philosophy is very different from that gleaned from participating in CSI and maintaining open relationships with other members of the industry. |
Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS
Senior Member
Username: dbrinley
Post Number: 106
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 05:32 pm: | |
Ah, Phil knows of which I speak! Opportunists and charlatans and disciples of untruth! |
Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI
Senior Member
Username: rbaxter
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 05:55 pm: | |
How can I find out who these rogue manufacturers are (other than the hard way - by specifying them?) I'm still looking to a good way to weed my manufacturer/product garden. |
Phil Kabza
Senior Member
Username: phil_kabza
Post Number: 130
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 10:22 pm: | |
As there is no specifier's Consumer Reports, and cognizant of the issues related to libel, we have to accumulate our own lists of rogue manufacturers, or have breakfast with other specifiers. Fortunately, there aren't very many; the industry is full of very dedicated and ethical people on the manufacturer side of the business. But after a while, a consensus emerges in a region. Sometimes the rogue manufacturer's product is quite good; it's just their business practices that annoy the daylights out of specifiers. Such as going around the design professional and directly to the owner. Or a pattern of appearing in submittals after not being listed as an acceptable manufacturer in a closed specification. Or when you arrive for a site visit and find the product already applied, and the submittal on your desk when you get back to the office.
My manufacturer garden is planted around the quality of the manufacturer's representatives. Recently a national manufacturer fired a talented regional representative under circumstances that made the manufacturer appear to have very questionable ethics. We all knew. It cost the manufacturer more than they will ever know. Loyalty still amounts to something in our neck of the woods. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 484
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 10:51 pm: | |
Richard,
I second Phil's comment and add that lunch or any other social function might turn a conversation that way. Best 1 on 1 rather than a group. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 124
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 09:40 am: | |
Some manufacturers are beginning to get the idea (again) that representation of their product line by knowledgeable and ethical men and women who understand what specifiers do and what they are up against will pay off in the long run. I do wonder, however, if manufacturers really understand how valuable a good product rep's assistance can be to the architect and specifier and how much that can pay off in the future. I still have some warm and fuzzy feelings for manufacturers whose reps provide me with valuable help in Hawaii more than 20 years ago even if no rep has ever called on me in Houston over the last 8 years.
When I did move to Houston in 1997, one of the reps in Hawaii (a CSI member) contacted his counterpart in the Houston area and I was contacted by that rep before I even landed a job! |
Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 241
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 12:13 pm: | |
when I've consulted with manufacturers they always seem to be surprised at how important a good rep is to me. Some manufacturers seem to think that with a good web site that they can cut down on the number (or quality) of their regional representation, and that simply isn't the case. I've been making a point of going directly to the national sales managers at the CSI convention and speaking to them directly about how good their reps are -- or how their not having a rep is limiting their usefulness to my office.
I've also called national sales managers when someone does too much negative selling to me. I consider it insulting and not respectful both of my time and my knowledge base. After five years of me not specifying a particular product line, a new rep came into town with a large bottle of expensive olive oil and said "I couldn't find an olive branch, but would this work as an apology?" we've since arrived at a good working relationship. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wyancey
Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 02:12 pm: | |
This not really negative selling but it does leave a negative impression.
A large mult-national manufacturer of XPS that comes in blue color has slowly whittled down and eliminated their product rep forces. Currently, it is impossible to talk to an experienced product rep on salient technical issues. Their web site if vague and generic. If and when I was able to talk to a live body, it became abundantly clear, they only know where to find the generic product spec on their web site.
Several high profile manufacturers have eliminated their product reps from various regions and piled on the territories to one person (how about Alaska, HI, BC, AB, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, WA, ID, OR, UT, Montana). Thank goodness some have an excellent cell phone provider.
Wayne |
Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS
Senior Member
Username: dbrinley
Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 02:35 pm: | |
I think the manufacturers don't know what to do because the internet is such a powerful tool.
The manufacturers have a lot of pressure to put up a fantastic website. Manufacturers then wonder what that (expensive) guy sitting in his car 85% of the day is really doing for the company. After all, he's one guy and they have The Internet. And so where the reps still exist, the don't get the training they once did, nor the respect. Who is going to feel valued in that?
I speculate that some of the better reps (from the specifiers perspective) get treated like crap. So most of the (new) guys that come in are lacking sales skills confidence, and they're a little angry besides.
My neighbor sells pharmaceuticals and he's a little angry 100% of the time. |
Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: rick_howard
Post Number: 58
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 03:03 pm: | |
Some of the material manufacturers have distributors who have stepped up their sales efforts and become the defacto source of information about the product. It helps to keep us informed, but it isn't perfect. If they can't answer your question, they have to call the manufacturer and get an official answer. At least they seem to know who to call to get an answer. |
Tomas Mejia
Senior Member
Username: tmejia
Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 03:22 pm: | |
When a rep starts bad mouthing another company's product, I simply inform him that he is there to talk about his product not his competitor's. I then ask him to tell me about his product and why should I use it. As for negetive selling reps, I tend to only spec their products as a last resort. I really appreciate reps who inform me of problems with their own products, limitations and discontinued products. If they don't carry what I need, these same reps will steer me to a competitors product for me to consider. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 487
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 03:31 pm: | |
Doug and Richard touch on a real point. In these times of changing information technology, lots of manuafacturer's are reviewing their methods of keeping the industry and design professionals informed. Some think technology can do it all, it certainly costs less. Some decide to fold everything back into a corporate central location, even if they are real people.
For some products, those can work. But even for those where it does work, some implementations don't work well.
For some products, especially when it comes to working your way through it the first time, you just have to have a higher degree of hand holding. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but how do I find the right picture, or know which one is the right one for my situation.
I know this is really topic drift, its not really about negative selling - but it is certainly inefficient selling.
When something like this happens, we need to tell them how its not working for us by telling them what we really need. Those that respond negatvely, well, that's called thinning the herd in blunt terms. I certainly don't use difficult manufacturers. And if required to by an Owner's preference, I tell them I will do the best I can but if I don't get what I need, I can't make it happen. We had a very uncooperative paint rep in the area here. I would not carry them because they would never respond or cooperate with my attempts to determine equivalent lines with other manufactrer's. They never got any of our projects either. Then an owner stated he required their use. I told him I had no information from them, all the background on the problems. Nice big job too. A few days later a rep had been reassigned from an adjacent terriroty to cover us, and there was complete cooperation.
So, sometimes specific requests by owners for products you don't like to use can pay off in suddenly new cooperation.
William |
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