| Author |
Message |
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 131
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:05 pm: |    |
Do I have the number right? The contractor wants to raise the temperature in the space to force vocs out of the materials. This would be followed by a flush of outside air (I assume.) Cabinetwork contractors promise to void warranties due to hot dry environment. (can't blame them) I don't know what temperature/humidity they expect to hit but I'll bet it's around 110dF and 10%rh.
What do ya-all think. I'm currently at the "Hell no" stage. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 473
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:26 pm: | |
Marc,
It sounds like it originated from someone's interpretation of a purely scientific result. Yes, raising the temp may 'force cure' some VOCs. When just trying to do this without looking at anything else, sounds reasonable.
But, most things installed will have a shortened life span due to this - as well as void warranties, etc. Any architectural woodwork of any kind including any wood doors, the complete warranty would be totally voided. Many other products will have their warranties voided even though it does not talk about environmental temperatures because the warranty talks about normal and typical usage. They use language like that to void claims where such usage is obviously not normal or typical. This I think would fall into that.
Then you have other issues to deal with, such as expansion and contraction (contraction if/when the temperature is lowered (or humidity is raised) and it comes to quickly). You may see drywall cracks. Items with close tolerances, you may see some deformation. I don't know what this might do to some of the other equipment.
Remember too that you are not just changing the enviornment inside the building - you are creating very atypical pressure changes for movement of watervapor and air through the building evelope.
My position would be to move rapidly from the 'hell no' stage to the 'I can't stand behind any of the products or requirements of the contract documents' stage. Follow that with a letter to the Owner where you will not stand behind anything that comes up if this is done.
Its about the craziest thing I have ever heard of for a finished space.
William |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 397
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:38 pm: | |
Actually, I believe that this comes from a recommendation a number of years ago by the EPA for improving indoor air quality. The concerns expressed here about damage to materials are quite real, but I'm not sure if the EPA is still making this recommendation. Unfortunately, I can't remember what publication this was in, but it may have been the one on clean air for schools. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 474
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:47 pm: | |
Its an interesting concept. Scientifically, its correct.
But once you drive out the VOCs, then you have it in the air and clinging to other surfaces, one would think you would need to undertake this with a corresponding high rate of air circulation and inside/outside air changes. As well as removal of (or after completiong changing) the filters.
Not so sure that this would be so friendly to the enviornment pumping this all outside.
And then there are those materials that may have VOCs in them but are stable after having cured. Many transparent finish systems are in the category. Many factory cured coatings are in this category. But raising the temperature to that height may (will in some cases) cause them to undertake additional cure and put out additional VOC that would never be released.
Some materials may simply become unstable after such a bake and become a problem where they would not have originally.
Schools or not, EPA or not, scientifically a correct effect with unexamined consequences. Totally hair brained to apply to a completely finished space.
William |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:55 pm: | |
It sounds like an attempt by the contractor to perform a building flush-out similar to one option for LEED Credit EQ-3.2.
Just because 100 percent outside air is used to flush-out the building, it doesn’t mean that the heating or cooling system (depending on the season) is shut down. Granted, there are energy usage issues involved with running the heating or cooling system for the LEED referenced 2 week period, but it’s the correct way to perform a building flush-out and to ensure the removal of contaminates for the benefit of the building occupants. Raising the temperature of the enclosed space will not produce any improvement in the elimination of volatile organic compounds.
One option might be to perform indoor air quality testing prior to a building flush-out to determine if a flush-out is needed. See EPA Protocol for Environmental Requirements, Testing for Indoor Air Quality, Baseline IAQ and Materials for Research Triangle Park Campus, Specifications Section 01445 www.epa.gov/rtp/new-bldg/environmental/specs.htm |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 475
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 03:01 pm: | |
Ronald,
Yes, circulation is one thing, temperature is another. The circulation concept is truly beneficial.
I wonder where the idea of raising the temperature so high came from? |
Susan McClendon
Senior Member
Username: susan_mcclendon
Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:11 am: | |
Marc, why would the contractor volunteer to do this in the first place? It costs money, unless he's not paying for the utilities -- even then it would involve a labor cost and presumably some delay before completion. Is there a contractual requirement this is supposed to address? If not, is he trying to correct the effect of installing high VOC products when he shouldn't have?
Susan |
Marc C Chavez
Senior Member
Username: mchavez
Post Number: 132
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:33 am: | |
Thanks, all for your responces.
Susan, I agree but I'm not in on the regular meetings. I think the contractor figures the cost of the heat (probably by owner) is no big deal, labor minimal, and delay not much if the heat is running over a weekend. (like labor day), and he figures no call backs while the carpet is stinky during early occupation. Who knows! I have passed the link to this page to the architect and have sent him an e-mail that says in short "No!" |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 527
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 12:46 pm: | |
Marc,
I heard a rumor that our client has done this "bake out" on previous projects and wants to do this procedure on my project.
I am too busy with other "fires" to have the concept fully sink in. Now that I am becoming more concious, I agree that this "bake out" is a really poor idea. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 476
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 12:52 pm: | |
David,
I would point the owner towards the LEED 'air out' process, recommend that they do that and nothing else. Do you have a copy of the LEED credits listing? I think it is available on their web site. You could list the paragraphs and state that this is what is recommended for 'green buildings' and not any bake out. |
Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS
Senior Member
Username: dbrinley
Post Number: 101
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 01:38 pm: | |
Absolutely not. Sometimes I'm amazed at what 'we all' missed in high school chemistry. No, adding heat does not a cleaner environment make.
If you want to make people sick, heat up the interior of a new building, then vent it, then close it back up.
VOCs are long chains of organic molecules. They are reactive; that is they have capability of 'making friends' with other molecules. VOCs are a lot bigger and complex (and unpredictable with many dangerous permutations) than the stuff (air) we like to breathe.
We (can) filter VOCs out of the air (capture them). However, this gets nit-picky and too expensive to do for every new building. Instead, we just want to 'sweep' those suckers outside.
If there is anything we want out of the atmosphere, it's methane (four hydrogen molecules and one carbon molecule) -a nice and compact little bugger.
We're overly concerned about what we're venting from the interior of a new LEED building (those long chains of VOCs). A cow near you (or a landfill) is doing a heck of a lot more damage to the atmosphere. Contact your legislator. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 03:10 pm: | |
Welllll...back in the old days, the really old days, before any of us were around I suppose, people used to let completed buildings sit unoccupied for six or twelve or eighteen months before they moved in. To air out. Suggest THAT to your client. |
Ron Beard CCS
Senior Member
Username: rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 74
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 04:18 pm: | |
<Welllll...back in the old days, the really old days>
George: Back in THOSE days, airing out was not a problem. Buildings had so many holes and cracks ventilation was the least of their problems. Keeping water and rodents out where more of a problem. I remember in my old cira 1910 house [balloon frame with no insulation], I could feel a draft inside when the wind speed got up to 25-mph.
Ron |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 04:47 pm: | |
Right, Ron, on the leaky old buildings. The way I heard it, keeping the buildings unoccupied was a perceived health issue, more involved with letting the wet trades (plaster, primarily?) 'dry out', or cure, than 'air out'. If you moved into a damp new building too soon, you were more prone to come down with pneumonia, or rhumatiz, or lumbago, or whatever people got in them there days. Draw your own analogy with mold, sick building syndrome, etc, today. The more things change..... |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 04:59 pm: | |
Mr Beard, My house was built in 1913, and we prefer to call the constant moving window coverings "Historic Atmosphere" |
Ron Beard CCS
Senior Member
Username: rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 75
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 02:08 am: | |
George: But didn't those people get pneumonia, rhumatiz, lumbago, etc., anyway. At least it was before asbestos!
Ronald: And don't forget those squeaky floors. Made it really tough to sneak in at night.
Ron |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wyancey
Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:13 pm: | |
To owners of THIS OLD HOUSE.
Do all the floors incorporate a slope to drain to collect marbles in one corner of each room?
Wayne |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:50 pm: | |
Wayne, you must have a new house. The floors in my 1913 house slope to all corners. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 399
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 02:03 pm: | |
They slope to the center of the house! Invariably, it seems that builders didn't use a sufficient footing under those center columns in the basement. (For warm climate dwellers, that's another entire floor below grade!) My ca. 1891 house has a veritable wind through the floor boards in a few locations, in spite of having insulated, as well as closed off the balloon-frame stud cavities in the attic and the basement. The subfloor and wide pine flooring are parallel, so when the joints (up to 1/4 inch) coincide, watch out! It'll blow right up your pant legs. |
Ron Beard CCS
Senior Member
Username: rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 02:18 pm: | |
<slope to all corners>
......and the middle. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 110
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 02:34 pm: | |
The house I grew up in in Connecticut was circa 1798 and there wasn't a level spot in the whole place except where my Dad did replacement work.
It used to drive him nuts! |
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