Helping market the firm.

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Author Message David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 481 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:18 pm:    This is kind of off topic. (Maybe Colin can start a new discussion forum.) I am interested in helping my firm find work. Since I am just a lowly spec writer, I know very little about the marketing end of things. How do I go about looking for possible leads? Kristin C Kennedy RA CCS CSI Senior Member Username: kkennedy Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:25 pm:    I'm not an independent specifier, but I know of four firms in Pittsburgh who are looking for full time specifiers. I suggest that you approach firms looking to hire a specifier employee with the attitude of "hire me as a consultant until you find your permanent specifier." CSI's web site posts jobs. Monster.com is good and I also found that my local newspaper will email me when a want ad has the word "architect" in it. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 209 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:39 pm:    Search amazon.com, under Books and then "marketing architectural services" Looks like 2 good possibilities; one book by Jones and the one by Weld Coxe Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 133 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:48 pm:    Ralph, on this one I disagree, I've never found much use for the marketing books - if you are looking for work, first you find out via trade publications and local business publications who has the work than you pick up the phone and make a call - I've found that 80% of the time when I make a cold call, esp. in today's market, I get some interest...its true that sometimes the effort leads know where, but most of the time I am surprised how effective 'cold calling' can be. Do your homework first, than make the call. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 482 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:48 pm:    Oops! I was not clear. I am currently employed at an architectural firm. Business is a little slow. (We are in the famine portion of the feast and famine cycle.) Even though the partners are responsible for bringing in work, I would like to help. Bringing a job to the office would be a feather in my cap and maybe I would get a nice 'finder's fee' out of the whole deal. Plus they might forget about all the times they chewed me out. ;-) Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 134 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 02:57 pm:    David There is plenty of work here in Florida, does your firm have some expertise that they could offer our Florida firms - it is surprising that we are seeing alot of out of state firms partnering with local firms on projects, sometimes due to the pretisge of the out of state firm, sometimes for their expertise. I too am a lowly spec writer, but I have my own firm and besides working with a number of Florida firms we have several out of state arch. clients. As you may have seen from my previous posts, some of the work is hair pulling as are the clients - but it still pays the bills. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 210 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 03:17 pm:    Mr. Lazar-- Your disagreement well taken. Merely trying to suggest some source of pointers. Yours are very good. Mr. Lazar, Mr.Axt and others-- Let us hence forth discard "lowly" from our business cards-- ain't no such thing as a lowly spec writer!!!!! Remember: What we perceive ourselves to be, we become! [Think big; think "good" at a minimum; Hey, think Grandiose!!!] Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 47 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 03:40 pm:    Are you contemplating development of more architectural project clients, or other firms who might outsource their specs to your firm (or both)? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 483 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 05:32 pm:    I am contemplating more architectural jobs. It seems there is enough work in the Northwest (most firms are actually hiring) but my firm can not seem to get in on the action. The boss says that we are just on the tail end of the cycle. With public work, I am told, there is a lag in funding. A few years ago when the private sector work was tight, we were hiring. Now the opposite is true. I would like to help bring in more work be it private or public. David Axt Lofty Specifications Writer Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 05:49 pm:    In my opinion, nothing is better than personal relationships. Go to where your clients are, whether it is professional association meetings (for their profession, not AIA or CSI) or local Chamber of Commerce meetings. Look for fundraising events/charity functions that might attract the type of owner's you are hoping to attract. Then go and network, network, network. Follow up with letters ("it was a pleasure meeting you, etc. etc.) Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 48 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 07:38 pm:    It's all about relationships -- or, as they used to say, "It isn't what you know, it's who you know." Enough cold calls may turn up some prospects, but a relationship usually has to be built before a project is awarded. A tape series James Franklin did for the AIA years ago called "The Mandeville Techniques" explains better than anything else I know how the process works, and why. It's simple, but it may seem counter-intuitive, the opposite of what you'd expect. If you can find those tapes, they're worth a listen. In a nutshell, you ask what kind of help they need, what they're trying to do, and you listen. And -- you take notes. You repeat back what they say, asking them to correct you if it seems you haven't understood them right (and so what they hear you say is exactly what they had in mind; this shows them you're on the same page...). You listen for "mystery words" -- things you aren't sure you understand -- and, with open-ended follow-up questions, you ask them to explain what they mean. Just ask them questions; it's an "other-directed" process -- it's all about them, and not about you. You try not to tell them much -- especially about yourself or your firm. (That comes much later, after you understand their needs, desires, dislikes and prejudices, and when you are prepared to explain what your firm can do to help them attain the desired result, how it can do it -- and also, perhaps, why what your firm can do -- and how it can help -- would be an advantage.) You build the relationship first by demonstrating, by the questions you ask, and your taking down notes, that you're interested in them and their needs; they actually experience your interest in them and your attention to their needs and desires, and see firsthand your willingness to help. And eventually they realize that you may well know better than anyone else what they need and want. That experience, and that knowledge, tends to build trust, which, ultimately, leads to the job... I too have been trying to find a way to bring in some business. Just yesterday I met with a recent acquaintance to help, on a pro-bono basis, with a grant application for repairs to his landmark church. While I was in that part of town, I dropped in to see another person I met through a mutual interest. He's an engineer with (and longtime friend of) a land developer. I dropped off a firm brochure for him to pass on, if he hears of anyone who might need our help. (Since these are relationships I have formed over the past 3 or 4 years, and in other contexts, I haven't tried to "Mandeville" them. That may not in fact be necessary, at least yet.) I don't know where these might lead, or even whether they will. But they know who I am, and now, they know whom I work for. At least it's a start. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 09:36 pm:    Experienced facility owner clients, some CMs, and a few contractors know you through your specifications work. So do a host of product representatives. Talk to the people who know you about work they might be aware of. If your services for them were appreciated, they may help connect you to upcoming work that isn't "on the surface." Cold calling when you are surveying potential clients about construction issues that interest them is much more productive than is calling trying to "get" something. School facility managers know and like to talk about roofs, hardware, casework failures, paint systems, and other detail aspects that specifiers are fluent in. Those conversations sometimes lead somewhere. I'm always amazed at how few architects read the newspaper. It's full of information about potential projects every week. Some clients find it very interesting when a technical expert calls on them, having tired of calls from the marketing types. Marty Sweeney, CSI New member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 07:06 pm:    This is a great topic. I have often wondered about the business development stratagy for architectural firms. I have certainly heard how important "word of mouth" is but I know you can't plan a fiscal year around it. In manufacturing, we look at specific economic indicators and try to determine how they might effect different segments of our business. The key word here is "try". I'm afraid I have more questions than answers on this subject but I am very interested to see more responses. Marty John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 384 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 08:51 am:    Our successes have come from years of building relationships with prospective clients. Since the lion's share of our work is public, you might think that this would be pointless since public entities have to advertise and do a public selection process. However, we have found we are significantly more likely to be selected if the client knows who we are and something about us. Certainly, this can work in the private sector, too. I think more that just word-of-mouth and who-you-know, every successful firm has to continually be building new relationships that may lead to work. This means that you have to have a fairly long time horizon (years), a focus on where you want to be so you can pursue it, and a willingness to invest the time and effort to get there. Anonymous   Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 03:48 pm:    The key to success for the 50 year old firm I work for has been it's diverse portfolio. We have several market sectors that we are "expert" in. When things get slow in one of those sectors, other sectors have been there to carry the firm - even through the worst economic times. I have worked for firms that had little diversity of project types, and it was always brutal when the market sectors they went after were slow. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 03:54 pm:    Marty: Architecture firms don't get to "plan" fiscal years. They try to plan fiscal quarters. It's wild out here. John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 55 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:09 pm:    Well said Phil. Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:28 pm:    I had a learning experience worth sharing. David you know what I'm talking about - a) Knowing (ie - being expert at something) is different from doing (accordingly many 'under-informed' people are "good" at marketing). David, you're informed AND expert, therefore you probably suck at marketing. ;-) b) Marketing isn't something to pick up when you need work and put down when you don't. c) If there is a lack of work (or too much), it probably originated well before anybody noticed it. d) There is no substitute for meeting and developing a favorable first impression with people you don't already know. e) Most of the work comes from the same people (people you likely already know) over and over. Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:33 pm:    Two best sales and marketing movies: Glengarry Glen Ross (unhappy ending) Tommy Boy (happy ending) - 'fat guy inna little coooatt' Marty Sweeney, CSI Junior Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:49 pm:    Phil: Plan was a strong word. What we do ranges from an educated guess to a SWAG. The value we can bring to a relationship (which is not unlike what I'm hearing many on this forum say) is what will help us do well, relative to the economic conditions we find ourselves in. Doug: I know some salespeople struggle with the specification process. The individuals you describe as "under-informed" do not, in my experience, last long in sales/marketing. I am pretty strong on product knowledge and the benefits and limitations of my products. I have always openly shared this information and have, when appropriate, recommended a competitor's product. Awhile back, a design professional took the time to share with me ways that my company could better assist in the specification process. (one of the things suggested was that I visit this forum and join CSI). I benefited greatly from this short conversation. I would like to think, moving forward, that this individual and their firm will benefit as well. Marty Anne Whitacre, CCS CSI Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 07:10 pm:    and that means... client service, client service and client service. Every job that walks in the door because of a good experience in the past, is a marketing expense that isn't necessary. I know our firm (which does higher ed work) has followed various campus administrators around the country as they move from job to job: we work with them at one college, and then at their next college and then at their next, as they keep getting promoted. When I was a consultant, I had the same experience -- I worked with the same person no matter what firm they were working with. I believe pretty strongly in the idea that firms should have some basic building types that they are competent at and can do profitably; and then at the same time slowly develop expertise in one or more building types that will bring clients to them for that specialized knowledge. There should also be a mix of public and private type work -- to help balance out those funding cycles. And everything requires slow cultivation of client contacts. Marty Sweeney, CSI Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 09:25 am:    So, beyond relationship building, is there anything that a manufacturer can do to assist an architectural firm in marketing the firm's services? Doug Brinley AIA CSI CDT CCS Senior Member Username: dbrinley Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 11:46 am:    Marty, Manufacturers can provide referrals to customers and others that call for technical support. When I worked for a manufacturer, I noticed the techs were trying to solve customer's problems (including stuff beyond their expertise) instead of referring them (from time to time) to design firms that specified their products. They might have been provided a list of design firms around the country that regularly specified their products. Then, instead of being 'Joe Helpful', they might have directed tough problems in an informed way to people whose living is made developing solutions to design problems. There are limits to what you can describe to a person over the phone! My experience was that they seemed to be a line between 'can-do' (manufacturers and contractors) and 'do-this' (architects and engineers). The tech guys were only informed about the 'can-do', and those guys don't provide consulting. These are well-meaning in-house people (sometimes doing sales), they just don't understand the larger picture. So, many opportunities to connect manufacturers and A/E are lost. You could research and identify the firms that regularly specify your products. You could make sure that you have a nationwide network of A/E's willing to work with your customers. Admittedly, A/Es have been neglectful of 95% of the construction market because of their (our) (aversion) to small projects (inability to make these small jobs profitable). I was surprised how much construction occurs with no A/E attention. And you can make sure your salespeople know when to stop selling their technical people and start referring to their specifying A/E's. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 385 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 11:47 am:    Manufacturers may have relationships with owners and others who could become clients of an architectural firm. Also, they probably have relationships with architectural firms that have a variety of practice areas. Manufacturers can pass along opportunities that they become aware of that would suit the skills or practice of a firm. So, listen carefully for new projects and new opportunities for work. Manufacturers can also help by strengthening, rather than weakening, the architect's relationship with the client. As one could read elsewhere in this discussion group, some manufacturers have been known to "go around" the architect to try to sell their product directly to the owner. This does not improve the relationship of the architect to the client, and can harm it. Don't do that. But manufacturers can also help the architectural firm market by helping to make sure the projects they are involved with are successful. Be a problem solver on those projects in design, and in construction. David J. Wyatt New member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 01:09 pm:    Basic marketing principles are good for everyone working in a firm to know. The simplest courtesies and actions convey the spirit and demeanor of your firm, and thus help prospective clients decide if they want to work with you or not. The office receptionist is often the first person to have contact with a client-to-be. If that person is trained to be consistently courteous and diplomatic, you have a fighting chance of establishing good client relationships. But if that person conveys a bad impression for any reason, a dark cloud will hover over your business until the person is moved into another position or out the door. The same goes for anyone else who has access to a telephone or e-mail. Courtesy, respect, availability, and general optimism help market the firm and land commissions - probably as much as design skill or technical expertise. Who are the best examples of professional courtesy and grace under pressure? Product representatives! We in the design end have a lot to learn them. Even if you have no immediate interest in a rep's products, pay attention to how they present themselves, how they make cold calls, how they handle difficult situations. For some of us, personal skills come naturally. The rest of us can learn from others. Marty Sweeney, CSI Intermediate Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 07:03 am:    Doug and John: I really like the referral suggestion. I don't think it would be too difficult to cultivate a list of architectural firms that support us. This gives us the opportunity to assist both the entity asking for technical support and the firm we refer. David: I couldn't agree more about a receptionist setting the tone for a company. This is a tough job but the right person becomes the goodwill ambassador for the company and sets the tone for the culture. Thanks to David Axt for a great topic. I've learned a lot! Marty David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 485 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 06:12 pm:    Yeah, this is a good topic. My thanks to the original poster. (Thanks Marty. The $20 bill is in the mail.) One thing I have learned from the senior principal is that our consultants are expected to occassionally bring us work. Probably structural has the best ability to do this, but others are expected. That said, if a product rep brings in work for our firm you can bet that they will have a proprietary spec for that project and possibly others. We may even design around their products as well. Hans W. Meier, FCSI, Honorary Membedr of CSI New member Username: hans_w_meier Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 08:22 pm:    David Wyatt: Your comments were right on target. Hans Marty Sweeney, CSI Advanced Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 5 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 03:34 pm:    David: After the tech bubble burst, $20 will just about double my 401K! Marty Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bwoodburn Post Number: 52 Registered: 01-2005 Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 06:32 pm:    "...if a product rep brings in work for our firm you can bet that they will have a proprietary spec for that project and possibly others. We may even design around their products as well." The following caveat is not about using products of someone who has already brought you a job, but a different situation. Our late colleague Clark Moore once told of a building material manufacturer who "dangled carrots" as a marketing tool. If I recall accurately what Clark said, the manufacturer was also an investor in land development partnerships with various developers, and led architects to believe he was in a position to steer an upcoming project their way if they used his product (in projects already "on the boards," that is). Apparently, because of that possibility, a lot of architects used his product in their buildings. Though the product was frequently used, it wasn't necessarily without inherent problems, or the best product for the application, so it's possible that the quality of many buildings may have been compromised in expectation of some future benefit to the architect. I don't know how many architects actually got projects as a result; some may have, but the implication was that quite a few ended up without the anticipated "payoff". It was unethical marketing on the part of the manufacturer. Was it also unethical on the part of the architects who "took the bait"? (Again, I'm not implying that any previous posts involved ethical problems.) Where do you draw the line? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 06:41 pm:    If I'm not already specifying their product because it has been deemed a quality product, I would be hesitant to specify a particular product solely on the basis of a promise of acquiring a project - I would hold judgement until a contract with a client was actually signed. Even then, if it is not a quality product, Oh well! David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 486 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 03:14 pm:    I am not claiming that I will do anything unethical here. Certainly I will not specify an inferior of inapplicable product just because the rep brought me the job. Actually years ago a distributor approached me with a small little roofing job. As hard as I tried, I could not specify any of the products that the distributor carried. That said, if I can bend the rules a bit and make the rep's product more prominent in the spec or so I will do it. Otherwise, what is the incentive for a rep to bring us work? Marty Sweeney, CSI Senior Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 6 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 07:11 pm:    I cannot imagine that a product rep, who intentionally pushes a product that is inferior to the performance specification, is going to be around for long. Even if that individual could live with the questionable ethics of that situation, where would they ever find any repeat business? David is correct. As a product rep, it is my job to get my product specified. As in any business relationship, I would hope that my chances improve if I can bring superior solutions and value to the process. That must be prefaced with the understanding that my product must meet the performance standards of the spec. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 487 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 07:57 pm:    Marty, Oh you would be very surprised. I know a few reps that I would not let scrape gum off the bottom of my shoe. They totally screwed us over then denied everything. We have permanently written them out of the spec and thrown away their catalogs. But who are we? We are just a small architectural firm. There are dozens if not hundreds of firms out their just waiting to be taken. Long live Barnum and Bailey! One of the reasons why we started the Puget Sound Specifier's Share Group was to warn our fellow specifiers about unscrupulous reps. On the flip side we do talk up a good rep and try to 'sell' them to others in the group. Marty Sweeney, CSI Senior Member Username: martysweeney Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 09:03 pm:    But David, that's my point. These reps will not have your business in the future. You might work for a small firm but word and reputation will get around. "I know a few reps", I hope this implies that they were the exception, not the rule. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 219 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 12:59 pm:    David Axt: This discussion thread has focused on the spec writer doing marketing directly. There's another way of looking at the spec writer contributing to the firm's marketing efforts. That is, supporting or improving the efforts of the principals and marketing staff. There are the oft-repeated requests for project information. Repeatedly, I've had to answer questions about the size of past projects, their construction type and their cost. There are also basic questions about materials used. Duh. Like, this can't be put into a database or spreadsheet for future reference (apparently not because it requires some effort on the part of the marketing people)? So, let the spec writer assemble this information. Isn't it recorded in the specs for each project, for information to prospective bidders? Perhaps a form should be filled out for each new project (and past projects for historical purposes) describing the project and who the parties are or were (owner, cm, contractor, consultants, major subcontractors, etc.; project delivery method; building and site data; and construction cost data). You might even go so far as to assemble images of the project in the database for use in promotional presentations. I think this would also have the benefit of making the spec writer the archivist of the firm's history --- adding to the value of the spec writer to the firm. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 488 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 01:04 pm:    Marty, Yeah but who cares about my firm. We do 20 projects a year, big deal. Even if I talk to every architect I know there would still be enough suckers around to keep the unscrupulous rep going for a long time. Sometimes the bad guys win. I knew a rep that started a roofing/waterproofing 'consulting' business. He went around inspecting and writing reports and repair recommendations. Guess what products he specified?.....the products that he represented! These are exceptions. Most of the time the distribution of reps is like a bell shaped curve. There are a few really bad reps, a few really stellar reps, but most fall in between the two extremes. Marty, by participating in CSI and this forum I am sure that you fall in the 'excellent' portion of the curve. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 220 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 01:09 pm:    I'd also like to suggest that the spec writer join with the CA staff or project architects to do follow up with the owners and constructors of completed projects. Do a walk-through of the project a year after it is completed and find out how products and the design have worked out. Let the spec writer record and share this information with the firm's designers. It would be interesting to learn if others have had positive experiences with this. Also, this would help build positive relationships with contractors. It's my observations that, for private projects, the general contractor is often selected before the architect. GC's have very sophisticated marketing efforts and it could be beneficial to the architectural firm to have a positive relationship with GC's, especially with the prospect of more design-build projects. (You might also do a presentation to the estimators who work for a GC about MasterFormat 2004.) David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 489 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 01:18 pm:    John, Thanks for the tip. Right since the spec load is very light, I am doing CA for a small elementary school. What an eye opener! All specifiers (and architects) should be required to do CA for a year. Because of my experience I have gone back and rewritten some of our masterspecs to make them less 'academic' and more real world. I have also talked around to the contractors about possible jobs or leads. Helaine K. Robinson CCS Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 188 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 02:03 pm:    Another thing that a specifier can often do to help the firm is proofread and edit PPTs and other presentation material. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 389 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 08:08 pm:    David, My entire career has been a mix, maybe 50/50, of CA and spec writing. There is no doubt in my mind that each reinforces the other, and I do a better job at each because of what I learned on the other. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 490 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 10:37 pm:    Helaine, What is a PPT? Helaine K. Robinson CCS Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 189 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 03:11 pm:    Sorry, PPT = Microsoft PowerPoint (presentation software)