Exterior Stone Tile

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Author Message J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 54 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 02:41 pm:    We do a lot of single story retail shell work in which we use a stone tile wainscot. The stone is usually a 12 x 12 x 3/4 inch product and is set in a mortar bed over self-furring metal lath applied to either a tilt-up concrete substrate or a sheathed cold-formed metal framing. I have gone around and around in my mind about whether this is "stone" (Division 4 location--stoning?) or "tile" (Division 9 location--tiling). It is "stone" set in an exterior application, but the installation is a tiling application. In fact, I have refered to TCA installation standards. On the other hand, I seem to recall somewhere that Division 9 tile work was generally llimited to interior applications. Can anyone give me a clear rationale for locating this work in one Division or the other--maybe in Division 19-3/8? Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 02:52 pm:    Personally, I would call it "Stone Tiling" (Section 09 30 33). It's not used in a manner that I would consider it "masonry". David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 35 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 03:08 pm:    JP: I had a project recently with a thin sandstone product, about an inch thick, installation pretty much the same as yours. I specified it Section 04856 - Thin Stone Veneer. My own personal general rule of thumb for this type of product / application: if its exterior, I'll put it in Division 4. If its interior, I'll put it in Division 9. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 28 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 03:17 pm:    I usually assume and I think Marble Institute agrees, if it is less than 3/4" thick it is a tile. And, since TCA has both interior and exterior assemblies I would put it in Div 9 in what used to be called "Dimension Stone Tile" maybe translated in MF04 as "Stone Tiling". To me the thickness and setting method overrule the fact that the material is actually stone. So I vote for tile realizing that there is an equally good argument for calling it something else. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 03:24 pm:    Peter, There is dimensional stone, and stone tile. These are 2 industry terms. Stone tile is a very specific product, typically limited to 3/8 to 1/2 inch thickness. 3/4 inch stone is dimensional stone. You can put it in either 9 or 4, depending on how you want to coordinate it - MF has flexibility that way. But, it is not tile, it is stone. What you are looking at is the setting system. Stone is often looked at from the point of view of how it is attached... conventional set (mortar set, masonry set AND spring clips and other attachments back to a CMU or stud wall is also considered conventional set). Precast backed, obviously, set on a precast panel at the precaster's factory. Strong back or metal supported, a metal grid system or other direct to metal support type systems. Interior or exterior, you want to look at 3/4 inch stone as stonework, not tile, and it is a conventional set application (setting bed to wall and grouted joints). William Ronald L. Geren, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 122 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 08:12 pm:    What's even more bizarre is that the International Building Code has placed ceramic tile installation requirements in Chapter 21, Masonry, and has anchored stone (<or=10"), slab (<or=2"), and terra cotta (>or=1-5/8") listed as a wall covering in Chapter 14, Exterior Walls. Vivian Volz Senior Member Username: vivianvolz Post Number: 39 Registered: 06-2004 Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 03:18 pm:    Peter, I have almost exactly the application you describe, except that my "wainscot" is 24 feet tall and my stone panels are 24 inches square. My ARCOM supporting documents are not helping... they're calling this thin stone and telling me why I shouldn't be cladding my building with it, but neither (a) whether I need to mechanically anchor the stones nor (b)what kind of anchors would work if I did. Do you have any insight? The project is in Seattle, so it's neither particularly seismic nor particularly prone to freeze-thaw cycles. Do you think we can get away with a thickset tilesetting method? (By get away with, I don't mean by code, I mean by the stone not failing or falling off.) J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 137 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:27 pm:    Since I got somewhat conflicting direction, I continue to specify such applications in Division 4, but the setting methods come directly from TCA recommendations for exterior wall tiling in a mortar bed (which looks an awlful lot like portland cement scratch and brown coat). I confirmed that was the way to go with a local product rep. I would use a very good polymer modified thinset mortar for "sticking" the tile onto the mortar bed and possibly a proprietary polymer mortar for the base coat as well. Make sure the steel studs are stiff enough; L/600 is the minimal I think you should use for this kind of think, maybe even go to L/720. Also. pay attention to the expansion joints, especially where the substrate construction changes from tilt to stud. The designers may moan, but that's where it's going to crack. Dale Roberts New member Username: dale_roberts_csi Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 12:53 pm:    Adhered Veneer stone with a facial dimension less than 720 square inches, and 3/4” thick should be included in Division 9. The Marble Institute of America’s (MIA) Definition of tile is as follows; A thin Modular stone unit, generally less than ¾” thick. MIA also reference’s the TCA handbook for most of their adhesive or adhered veneer stone. If you are using larger or thicker material or are going to install the material with Mechanical Anchors than you should include in division 4. Dale Roberts Junior Member Username: dale_roberts_csi Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:05 pm:    Vivian, You can use a direct adhered system as long the height limitations are 30 feet above grade for adhered veneer, 720 square inches of facial area and/or 15 pounds per foot. If you exceed any of these, or have other local building codes to deal with, they take precedence. You have several TCA methods including W201 W202 Also you may use W244 w231 when appropriate precautions are taken including flashing, expansion joint placement, and consideration for the particular climatic conditions and exposure.