| Author |
Message |
Stephen Wilson
Senior Member
Username: swilson
Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2019
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 09:01 am: |    |
Hi all,
I'm working on a project under construction where one of the other teams is asking about putting Barrier One in the slab to prevent potential moisture issues with flooring installation later on. My stance is that the better approach would be to pour the slab, measure the RH and alkalinity before flooring installation, and provide an acceptable adhesive for the conditions. If there isn't an acceptable adhesive available, we use a floor remediation coating or membrane prior to flooring installation.
I did find this old post from 10 years ago where the board was talking about Barrier One... just curious if anyone's thoughts have changed on the product since it's been around a while now. At the time people were skeptical about its claims.
http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/7869/6639.html
What do you think now?
Thanks! |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 955
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 10:17 am: | |
I recently read an article in Construction Canada by George Garber. I suggest you contact Mr. Garber.
George Garber is the author of Design and Construction of Concrete Floors, Concrete flatwork, and Paving with Pervious Concrete. Based in Lexington, Kentucky, he consults in the design, construction, and repair of concrete floors.
Garber can be reached by e-mail at ggarber@iglou.com
George most likely has experienced all the magic admixtures. |
Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap
Senior Member
Username: lgoodrob
Post Number: 415
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 11:10 am: | |
Stephen,
In the time since Barrier One came to market, many adhesives have improved to accommodate higher RH values.
I agree with your strategy.
- |
Nathan Woods, RA, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods
Post Number: 909
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 12:08 pm: | |
Backup up what Lisa wrote, for an example, Altro Flooring has an adhesive that can handle RH of 90% and Ph of 14. Having said that, I do still have to resort to a moisture vapor membrane sealer as a topical additive to the slab. Ardex makes a decent one, as does Koster. I like the Ardex a bit better in my opinion. |
Jeffrey Potter
Senior Member
Username: jpotter
Post Number: 43
Registered: 02-2017
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 12:17 pm: | |
You need to be careful with those admixtures because many flooring warranties require you test the slabs for RH and pH. Those admixtures companies will state you do not need to test. You will also need to verify adhesives for the flooring will work.
The firm I had worked at, the best practice was to install an ASTM F3010 compliant product on all new slabs, regardless of testing. It didn't always go that way because the Owner could just ask for a credit.
I worked on a project where the Owner was sold into an admixture and it was a pain in the but to go through all of the manufacturers to verify warranty and testing. It was public bid so I had to reach out to all of the listed manufacturers.
The wood gym floor in particular, I remember, was of great concern because it needed a completely different attachment system that they didn't even advertise for when slabs had these admixtures.
Lastly, a lot of lawsuits around these admixtures or even similar silica-based products (spray-on). Do you research and verify, verify, verify. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 05:05 pm: | |
Perhaps take a look at https://www.constructionspecifier.com/concretes-cobra-effect-unintended-results-of-embodied-carbon-reduction/
Please note that while true colloidal nano silica seems to work very well (I've heard of a few good options so far), yielding better results than wet curing and curing compounds, research so far is trending away from use of silicates except to harden already cured concrete, and this only under some circumstances, not universally.
I am not a concrete chemist but I have been talking with several chemists and there appears to be consensus about the positive effects of colloidal nano silica (NOT SILICATES) especially now with the increased use of alternative pozzolans (slag, fly ash, eieio) and other fillers like ground limestone in concrete mixes that are "stealing" the water needed to hydrate the cement in the mix. Our current efforts to promote sustainability may be reducing the longevity of our concrete. We need to investigate our concrete ingredients more thoroughly, including silica claims, instead of jumping on bandwagons.
As to how to deal with cured concrete to receive flooring, perhaps consider starting your testing using a good surface moisture meter such as Tramax (No, I do not own stock. I don't even own a meter, yet). Calcium chloride testing is good but the reality is that conditions can change from one day to the next so I don't know how much benefit you get from it. I'm no longer convinced that we get much if any benefit from conducting RH testing since the top inch of surface or less is what will determine success or failure of your flooring. Drilling holes in an otherwise good floor does not made me feel comfortable.
Please note that these are my personal findings and I do not speak for any company, my employer, or other individuals. |
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1986
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 12:07 pm: | |
Is Barrier One the same as SprayLock?
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 01:35 pm: | |
According to their PDS, https://www.concreteprotection.com/resources/pds/Product-Data_P3-Industrial_REV-D.pdf Spray-Lock P3 is a colloidal silica. I do not know what the nano particles sizes are or their reaction capabilities. I have used their products successfully and have been told by some concrete chemists that their products can facilitate internal curing. I would suggest additional research on your part if you decide to use them. We can have a sidebar if you'd like.
Barrier One seems to have silicate products http://barrierone.com/solutions/ as well as products that are "sodium silicate free" but I can only find what those products are not, not what they are. I prefer to avoid products that don't want me to know what they are. Obviously there are many types of silicates on the market in addition to sodium silicates and nano silicates, but they are not the same as nano silica.
I understand that there are products that are claiming to be nano silica but that don't have independent testing to prove what they are. I would be wary of those. I have encountered manufacturers who are using the two terms interchangeably which is worrisome.
Again, I speak only for myself and my limited understanding of the technologies being discussed. |
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1987
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 03:59 pm: | |
Barrier One doe have a few different products. According to their safety data sheets they are Calcium Silicate Hydrate materials.
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 09:56 am: | |
Perhaps they mean that their product produces C-S-H?
The definition I find is "Calcium silicate hydrate (also shown as C-S-H) is a result of the reaction between the silicate phases of Portland cement and water."
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_silicate_hydrate |
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1988
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 05:52 pm: | |
I think Creteseal CS2000 is another one of those products.
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 06:44 pm: | |
Looking at https://www.obexco.com/_files/ugd/b49758_2423a7d8bb20439eb499eaf514ff4a4e.pdf, Paragraph 7.1, the SDS states "Wash area with soapy water before material dries to prevent possible silicate build-up" so I presume it's a silicate but I have no idea what type of silicate it is.
Curious that I couldn't find any definitive statement anywhere else in their PDS or SDS regarding what the product is.
I don't understand who would buy or specify a product without knowing what it is but maybe that's just me. |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - 06:02 pm: | |
I would stay away from products like Creteseal. All you have to do is google Creteseal lawsuits and you get a nice number of them. You talk to any reputable flooring rep and they will tell you to stay away.
http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/7869/6398.html?1390003921 |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2023 - 02:50 pm: | |
See the LinkedIn article by Robert Higgins
Concrete Treatments and Admixtures - If they won't disclose what it is, DON'T USE IT!
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/concrete-treatments-admixtures-wont-disclose-what-dont-higgins |
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1995
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2023 - 08:05 pm: | |
Thanks Ken! That is a great article.
I agree. If the company will not divulge what their product consists of.....then what are they hiding?
David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Specifications Consultant
Axt Consulting LLC |
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