Phenolic Insulation Board for Cavity ...

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Author Message Stephen Wilson Intermediate Member Username: swilson Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2019 Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 08:25 am:    Hi all, Has anyone out there had any experience using Phenolic Insulation Boards? I recently came across an ad for the product, which has an R-value of R-8 per inch, and can be used in cavity walls like any other insulation board. (Can also be used in NFPA 285 assemblies.) As far as I can tell, Kingspan is the only company that markets it, under the trade name Kooltherm K8. Does anyone out there have experience using it on projects? With thermal preformance so much higher than your typical XPS or Polyiso, I'm wondering "what's the catch?" (Cost I'm sure, but I also wonder how it performs on-site in installation.) James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 313 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 08:47 am:    Stephen, type "phenolic insulation and corrosion" into a search engine and see what comes up. I remember several years back hearing that roofs with phenolic insulation and metal decks experienced corrosion of the deck when the roof leaked and the insulation got wet. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 789 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 10:03 am:    I see no mention in the manufacturer's product data about aged U-value. I'd be leery about basing insulation thickness on the published values alone. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 579 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 02:28 pm:    Phenolic insulation was introduced in the 1980s by Koppers. Fantastic thermal performance. It was pulled from the market however due to long-term problems with performance. I don't recall the specifics. Perhaps Kingspan has solved the problems. BTW, I was part of a consulting team advising Koppers. They asked me to write guide specs for the product using different styles of specifying: Proprietary, Performance, Descriptive, etc. It was a wonderful exercise that improved my skills as a specifier. Koppers got insight, too, into how to position and promote the product. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 01:22 pm:    If I remember correctly the higher R value was right. As James Sandoz said it does attack metal when it gets wet. I would only consider it for locations that won't get wet. Cavities get wet, so it would probably corrode the brick ties or other veneer fasteners. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1336 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2021 - 03:08 pm:    Wow. Koppers. I remember when they still had some great roofing systems. As I recall the phenolic insulation corrosion issue first became a problem in Canada where it was much more widely used. Seems to me that the failures north of the border precluded its usage catching on in the US. As many forensics articles have noted over the years, everything leaks given enough time. Perhaps using non-metallic ties and anchors is advisable when using this insulation since even vapor drive and condensation could possibly set it off if it's still an issue. John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1834 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 10:52 am:    I do remember problems with phenolic insulation when I was doing roof consulting work. I got curious, and found that phenolic seems to be currently available for piping insulation. For other applications, Kingspan reportedly has a formulation that reduces the acidity that caused the corrosion. Here's an interesting article. Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 04:40 pm:    Thanks for the article reference. It might be OK for hot water pipe insulation, but I'd want to see some long-term testing results before thinking of using it for chilled water pipe insulation. I've seen chilled water piping in humid locations eaten away because the foam rubber insulation wasn't properly sealed, and water vapor got to the pipes, condensed, and was trapped by the insulation, so it rusted the pipes from the outside. Stephen Wilson Advanced Member Username: swilson Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2019 Posted on Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - 10:54 am:    Thanks, all! Considering the previous generation of phenolic insulation boards was last used when I was in elementary school, no wonder I hadn't heard of the history. It will be interesting to see how Kingspan's product performs over time. I noticed roof applications is conspicuously absent from their list of applications, so it sounds like they are trying to avoid that kind of liability again. The brick tie corrosion issue is a good question though. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 94 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2021 - 08:06 pm:    I worked in Atlanta when One Atlantic Center (aka IBM Building) was constructed in the 1980's. From Wiki: "One Atlantic Center was designed by Johnson/Burgee Architects. As associate architect, Heery International, Inc. produced the contract documents." Koppers phenolic insulation was used in the granite-clad walls. I'm pretty sure that none of the fasteners for the stone anchorage penetrated the insulation. I've never heard of any problems with the exterior of the building, so I guess it's not a problem after 30 years. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, June 07, 2021 - 01:17 pm:    Stainless steel anchors are often specified for stone, rather than galvanized. That may be why they have lasted that long. Curt Norton, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: curtn Post Number: 253 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2021 - 09:46 am:    I would suggest talking directly to Kingspan about this. I met with their rep and brought up the same issue. They stated that the chemistry is different now. I can't imagine a company would spend the money on NFPA 285 testing for endless assemblies if the chemistry would still corrode fasteners. (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, October 29, 2021 - 02:58 pm:    Good Afternoon Everyone, Thank you for your interest in Kooltherm (Phenolic) insulation. I would be more than happy to answer your questions on the NFPA 285 testing completed and the old Phenolic from the 1980/1990's that had corrosive problems. If you would like to discuss these topics, please email me at Andrew.wilson@kingspan.com. Andrew Wilson Kooltherm (Phenolic) Product Manager Kingspan Insulation LLC