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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2072 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 05:20 pm:    What is ILO? Brian Payne Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 204 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 05:27 pm:    In lieu of Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2073 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 05:38 pm:    I am an idiot for not knowing that. thanks Brian Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 784 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 05:45 pm:    ....perhaps, but smart enough to ask. It all balances out :-) George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 907 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 05:51 pm:    Shame on the architect/contractor/developer whoever authored that document. Effective writing requires defining an acronym the first time it is used, or alternately in the case of drawings or specifications, providing a table of abbreviations or other key. Never prefer brevity ILO clarity. For the record, I have never seen ILO either. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2074 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 06:00 pm:    Asking is good. I tell all my clients to ask. However I should have known this one. I am going to chalk it up to spending 2 weeks in hospital. Went in with right side chest pain, released with pneumonia. They ran dozens of tests, scans, scopes, even a biopsy, still no diagnosis. I did receive a lot of happy juice for pain. Due to arthritis. Getting old sucks. I went in as a non-smoker, but discharge paperwork differed. I have avoided hospitals for 20 years, I had amazing nurses and aides, but it was not an experience I want to repeat. Trying to convince hospital I am a non-smoker has been tough. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2075 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 06:04 pm:    George, it was a Developer. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 785 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 06:22 pm:    Wow, you definitely want those records cleared up. That will play havoc with medical insurance or life insurance come renewal time! Its amazing how much time simple errors subtract from our life. What's more amazing is how hard simple errors are to fix! Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2076 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2019 - 06:28 pm:    well if anybody has had experience fixing theses problems I would love some tips, email please lazarcitec@msn.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1257 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 - 09:00 pm:    Hope you're feeling better my friend. Getting that sort of thing changed can be a moving target. I'd start with the hospital's medical records people. They have no control over content but they should know if there is a procedure to get content changed. Most of the folks I've dealt with have been pretty helpful. You might also call the office manager at your doctor's office. Part of their job is to help fix this sort of screw-up. It usually depends on whether they feel like helping you or not and what kind of day they're having. Sort of like dealing with me. Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 369 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 10:02 am:    Jerry, We're all wishing you a speedy recovery from our office too. I like Ken's final line, "Sort of like dealing with me." I think a bit of honey goes a long way with your doctor's office staff. I also use ILO as shorthand in my notes, but try not to do that for team communications, like email. - William C. Pegues Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 987 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 10:16 am:    I got indoctrinated early in my career by having the task of writing the architectural master specifications (including Division 1) of the Federal Railway Authority’s Northeast Corridor Project for the 17 stations between DC and Boston South. They were very strict that any abbreviation used in any section must have a definition of that abbreviation in Part 1 of the section in which it was mentioned. We did that for standard’s organizations like ANSI, ASTM, etc. since we were listing the standards referenced in the section anyway. But it was just way much less work to just not use any abbreviation of any kind other than the organizations. That was a process that took over a year. So, habit prevailed and no abbreviations anywhere for any reason has worked well ever since. It’s also a tradition that I passed down to several assistants over past which I know they carry on today as well. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 759 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 10:24 am:    Jerry, Best wishes, for your health and getting the medical records right. Lots of good advice above. At least, IMHO. Greta Eckhardt Senior Member Username: gretaeckhardt Post Number: 114 Registered: 08-2013 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 10:43 am:    Yes - no abbreviations other than those used for the standards organizations is good practice! In the old days when we had to cram hand-written notes onto drawings and wanted to minimize the number of typewritten specifications pages it was justifiable to use abbreviations. Now that we generate documents electronically, with the ease of copying and pasting, there is really no reason not to write everything out. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 679 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 02:19 pm:    Greta - Love your comment. Abbreviations were for people who had permanent calluses from hand lettering on hand drawn sheets. Or perhaps stone masons in the Roman Empire who became fatigued at spelling out Caesar three times on a cornice. I had hoped at one time that computers and automation would allow everything to be fully spelled out. But things have actually become worse, with texting short cuts now showing up in contract documents. Marc Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 541 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 02:40 pm:    I disagree. Even in writing documents I will never write out all of a title when the acronym, correctly introduced and noted can be used. It simply saves time in typing, not to mention copy editing. Think of what scientific Journals would be with no abbreviations etc etc (oops used an abbreviation for et cetera, et cetera. Perhaps I will irritate all of you and use &c &c which i've see in documents from the 1800's. The romans abbreviated for the same reasons we do, space and repeatability. On coins that is at a premium. now follows a little coin lesson: IMP CAES (name goes here) PF PP AVG this all means: IMPERATOR (emperor); Caesar (after julius' family was gone this was still used for "royal family");Pius and Felix (pious, happy); PP Pater Patriae (Father of his Country) and finally AVGVSTVS (Augustus) that actually means emperor as well and modifies the IMP into "revered" No. I like abbreviations and if i have to spell abbreviations too many times I use ABRV. OK back to work Ron Beard Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 470 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 04:42 pm:    AHJ seems to have taken root everywhere. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 680 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 05:14 pm:    I can't believe I am the only person where the first thing I did on reading Jerome's original post was to google ILO. ILO = International Labor Organization Marc Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 542 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 05:17 pm:    no you were not the only one to do that...me too. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 2217 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 05:18 pm:    And therein lies the problem. International Labor Organization, in the context above (Mineral Wool ILO Fiberglass Batt) makes absolutely no sense. If we are about clear communication, that is an example of a fail. Jerome J. Lazar, CCS, CDT, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 2077 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 06:10 pm:    Marc/Steven, why do you think I started this thread. Marc Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 543 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 06:28 pm:    exactly Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 681 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 06:39 pm:    Jerome, Because we have better things to do than to learn everyone's secret codes. Hoping to find "In Lieu Of" by googling I started scrolling through the responses. Page 7 of Scrolling: "Infrastructure Liaison Officer" appears. Page 8 goes crazy with "International Light festival Organization" and "innovation in Large Organizations" Page 9 provided "Integrated Living Organizations" and "Iowa Learning Online" Now, back to that door spec... Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2019 - 08:02 pm:    It took me less than a minute to google and find a link to a website listing various architectural abbreviations ... including ILO = in lieu of. https://www.archtoolbox.com/representation/abbreviations/archabbrev.html But this type of thing drives me crazy. I agree with the others that advocate for clear communication. Lists of abbreviations, no matter how well intended, should be avoided if at all possible. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: michael_chusid Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2019 - 09:03 pm:    How often do we refer to "Division 7"? Isn't that an abbreviation for "Division 07 - Thermal and Moisture Protection"? Besides, if a contractor did not know what ILO means, they can issue an RFI, i.e., issue a request for information. Wait, I mean, "id est, issue a request for information. FYI,texting abbreviations are well on their way to being part of the language, IMHO. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-4937 www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Ron Beard Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 471 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Monday, November 25, 2019 - 12:18 am:    "...an RFI, i.e., issue a request for information." Or, is it Request for Interpretation? "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 786 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, November 25, 2019 - 12:24 am:    Oooohhh! One of my favorite topics. To this day I condemn the AIA for creating an RFI form that says Request for Information, decades after CSI properly labeled it Request for Interpretation in the CSI Practice Manual. It makes such a profound difference! James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 289 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Monday, November 25, 2019 - 09:17 am:    Nathan, I totally agree with you on this issue but it seems we are fighting a losing battle. Interpretation could be a class of information but information can be much more and too easily construed (or mis-construed) to mean insufficient documents. [weep] Ronald L. Geren, FCSI Lifetime Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1572 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, November 25, 2019 - 10:42 am:    I was aware of the acronym, but not in the same context that it was used by Jerome. In 2005, as an Air Force Reserve officer, I was mobilized and deployed to Kuwait in support of Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom working for the Army on a design team because the Army didn't have that capability on the combat side of things (they do on the civilian side in the Corps of Engineers). Since we were there in place of Army personnel, we were referred to as "ILO forces." Ron Geren, FCSI Lifetime Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1258 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 25, 2019 - 11:04 am:    Ron, I didn't know that. Thank you for your service. Phil Babinec Senior Member Username: pbabinec Post Number: 26 Registered: 09-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 08:36 am:    Did anyone ever discuss the original question? Mineral wool vs Fiberglass. thermal or Acoustic. I typically specify mineral wool for acoustic and fiberglass is often substituted. I review for comparable STC assemblies. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1261 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 - 10:28 am:    Been years since I checked but there used to be a handful of partition assemblies that were tested using mineral fiber so fiberglass was not permitted. Most tested assemblies seem to require insulation only for acoustics in which case fiberglass is obviously acceptable. Some clients have noted a preference for mineral fiber; apparently it's perceived to be more stable (less sag) and its inherent fire protection is always a plus. Now that both options are available with formaldehyde free binders, I'm not sure I have a preference at interior partitions. Fiberglass used to be less expensive. I've heard (no pun intended) that fiberglass is better acoustically but I'm not sure under what conditions. Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 487 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2019 - 11:26 am:    In my experience, mineral wool used for thermal insulation is superior to fiberglass. Mineral wool loses much less insulating capacity if it ever gets wet. Regarding acoustical performance: I don't know if one is better. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 07:30 pm:    In my experience, I've never rejected a proposed substitution for mineral wool in lieu of fiberglass. Mineral fiber is more expensive but better in terms of moisture resistance (preservation of thermal value) and fire resistance. It has been shown that both provide nearly identical STC values when used in partition assemblies. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus