Questionable Manufacturer Tricks

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Author Message ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1602 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2023 - 12:51 pm:    My team was just looking at a technical data sheet posted online by one of the largest silicone sealant manufacturers in the world and noticed this caveat: Typical Properties Specification Writers: These values are not intended for use in preparing specifications. I wondered "What in the world does that mean?" so I called the manufacturer and was told that they include that clause in all of their technical data sheets. Tech support said that we should only base our spec content on their guide specs. Of course I asked where to find their guide spec only to find that it's not posted on their website. Only by calling the technical support line and registering with their technical support person can I receive a copy of their guide spec, presuming that they can find a copy to send me. Speechless. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 783 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2023 - 02:17 pm:    We once prepared an entire library of guide specifications for a large sealant manufacturer. Two years later, their project manager told us that the documents still hadn't cleared their legal deparatment - so they continued to use their wildly inadequate existing documents. We removed this manufacturer from our specifications. We just gave up on using a downloaded manufacturer guide spec after the document remained locked waiting for our PIN number. Sometimes you wonder if some of these folks are listening to anyone. The best manufacturers are listening, and they get a position in specifiers' work. Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA SpecGuy Specifications Consultants www.SpecGuy.com phil@specguy.com (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2023 - 01:34 pm:    Mmmm... I just had a similar experience where certain information was omitted from the Technical Data Sheets. I was told that it was too technical to be included. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1603 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2023 - 05:44 pm:    "Trust me." I don't trust you, but trust me. I know what's best for you. Where do these people come from? The government? Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 06:57 am:    Not specifications, but similar: I was working on a lighting design for an office project and found some really lovely fixtures. The manufacturer had PDF cutsheets available on their website online. You could LOOK at them but the security was set such that you couldn't download them which also meant that you mark them up, couldn't assemble them, you couldn't print them. I emailed them about this, explaining it was a problem. They wouldn't let me use their cutsheets without signing an NDA. The cutsheets were viewable on line, so anything proprietary was FREELY available -- but there really wasn't MUCH info on the cutsheets anyhow. I told them thanks, but no thanks. I would find another company's product to use. James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 377 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 10:26 am:    All great ways to NOT get specified. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 2064 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 11:54 am:    Okay I will name names since it is on their website so it is no secret. The company is Dow. I can't for the life of me think of the meaning behind disclaimer. Does it mean that they just made up numbers and they don't want to be held to it? I have a friend that used to work at Dow. I have sent this on to him for his opinion. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1604 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 12:01 pm:    I'm wondering if we need to require certified, independent test reports instead of product data sheets from manufacturers that include this sort of caveat. How are we supposed to believe anything they tell us? Please note that my postings are my own and may not reflect the point of view of my current or past employers or co-workers. Loretta Sheridan Senior Member Username: leshrdn Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2021 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 01:41 pm:    I am actually someone who checks ASTMs (and other referenced standards) to see if they are applicable. And one flooring company, you could tell that the graphic designer who set up the product data sheet didn't know much about what was on the data sheet, because none of it made sense. I contacted the manufacturer for clarification, and pointed out the issues with the product data sheet. The technical person with whom I spoke was very helpful, and gave me information that was germane, but that company never did revise those product data sheets. I was less than thrilled with the whole experience but we were locked into this product by the client. (I check referenced standards because of something that happened years ago: I used to take my dog to a dog friendly beach. One day, a bunch of flyers were posted saying NO DOGS ON BEACH and at the bottom was a reference to an ordinance. Everyone assumed it related to DOGS and BEACHES. I looked it up: It was an ordinance related to posting flyers. The take away from that experience was that people will try to snow you with numbers, assuming you won't bother to look them up.) David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 2065 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 06:17 pm:    My friend's response, "It basically says "product is not intended for use in the application we intend for you to use it". Sort of a legal get out of jail free card. All of us in the technical world shook our heads at this insanity, but what could we do? So, carry on like you didn't see it. In the end, I think it is meaningless." David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 819 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2023 - 09:32 pm:    Loretta: So the person who referenced the ordinance took a flyer.