Giving up on AWI QCP

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Author Message David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 2084 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2024 - 01:00 pm:    I am giving up on AWI's Quality Certification Program and removing it from my specifications. Casework manufacturers complain about it, owners don't want to pay for it, and architects don't want to enforce it. David G. Axt, CDT, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant Axt Consulting LLC Ronald L. Geren, FCSI Distinguished Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1638 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2024 - 01:09 pm:    I do not specify it unless specifically requested. Ron Geren, FCSI Distinguished Member, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSC, SCIP William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, CDT, Certified Master Gardener Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 1001 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2024 - 02:09 pm:    Sorry, can’t agree with this at all. Not to say that it’s not true in your area. I have been involved with the AWI Quality Certification Program since its inception…well, actually before it was official released. Anyway, my experience with Contractors that complain is like anything else they complain about, it limits them in addition to establishing a standard of quality. Experience from Caseworkers is that typically they are the ones that are not certified to do the installation. They may even bid on it to the GC and get accepted and then just complain. That was not uncommon. Owners, the only ones that complain is that the GC is complaining about it and attributing it to higher costs. In the end, you get what you pay for. And by that if there is a problem at inspection, it’s corrected at no cost. The woodworking sub gets his drawings reviewed by AWI, and if you find something on the drawings you don’t like you can ask AWi to verify it. And if something is installed inappropriately it’s corrected at no cost. So, have you had a Premium grade (non QCP) project show up with sealant joints in the woodwork. Not permitted unless you specifically show them, which of course you should not. Appropriate review of the installation has a feeler gage to check all joints for maximum gap which is well defined in the Standards themselves regardless of whether you do the QCP or not. I had that early on in the program, nice wood paneling and framing around the directory in the main lobby of the projecct. It was all ripped out and reinstalled by the woodworker at no cost to the owner. It was a QCP projecct and it was caught by the inspection and was not shown on the shops. Other joints were out of compliance as well. Another was for clouds of ceiling wood panels suspended below the main ceiling in a main lobby and was QCP. Really great installation and it passed its inspection. But about 4 months later they were sagging, the sub panels within each cloud were losing alignment. It was brought to our attention by the Owner who wanted to know whey the GC and the woodworker and the sub that installed the primary support were all finger pointing at each other. We contact AWI and they came for a reinspection, they reviewed the drawings it the woodwork was absolved of the problem because he provided the requirement on his drawings that specified the loads and minimum requirements for bracing. The woodworker was going to install everything and had actually requested it by the GC did not like his cost. The GC and his installer were stuck with the cost and corrections. Ultimately it was reinstalled on the required framing and we never heard of another problem. So, is it for every project? No, it’s best used for those truly premium projects which have complex problems or where the quality really wants to stand out. You can get the same results if you specific the project correctly and then you (or the architect if they know how) inspect the installation - remember to take the appropriate feeler gage. Sometimes, with repeat projects, you get up front recognition that the inspection is going to be pretty detailed after an earlier project they see you whip out the feeler gage! William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP jpjordan@jordanconsultants.com (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 03:43 pm:    I want to point out that the cost is a very low percentage of the woodwork to be covered by QCP to a max. It is very reasonable in relationship to what you get. My one experience involved some woodwork at an airport (quite a bit of it, actually). The inspector who visited the shop did a very detailed report (with photos). After the inspection, the woodwork sub offered a very substantial credit to make the certification requirement go away. It is my recollection that the Owner accepted the credit, but I had to wonder what corners the woodwork sub was going to have to cut to make that an economical choice. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, CDT, Certified Master Gardener Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 1002 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 08:39 pm:    Typically, all the QCP Certified Woodworkers never engage of the kind of thing that JPJ mentions. They had to pay a fee and pass shop inspections, pass the examination of sample joinery and other sample just to BECOME certified. And this has nothing to do with the particular project, its passing a series of tests and inspections to become a certified woodworker. AWI maintain as a listing of those woodworkers so and not all AWI member firms are certified, some have chosen not to be for a variety of reasons. And those certified have no problems with their work as installed. But when a non-certified woodworker gets the jobs he is NOT certified to provide a QCP installation at all. In the past, AWI’s policy was that they would not even engage in the QCP inspections of any kind if the Woodworker. Because the certification process is independent and prior to any QCP work, the cost has nothing to do with the project, as JPJ indicates. So when the GC or prospective woodworker says it’s going to increase their price, that essentially, BS. It means that the woodworker is not qualified to do the work and is adding on a presumptive cost to get the required testing and certification done - as well as the time it takes qualify. They may not even pass on the first attempt resulting in delays they want to charge for. In the end, you get what you pay for. I have often specified projects that were not QCP because they did not rise to that level of need. I did require that they comply with premium grade AWI requirements. And even then had woodworkers complain that this was an unreasonable requirement. They were often unhappy to see me show up on site (or the Project Architect) with a gage to measure gaps and tolerances. And by the way, you can go to any hardware store and for a very low price by a ‘feeler gage’ for checking spark plug gaps or valve and cam clearances. But that is what you need to know how to do. Unless of course you just rely on the ‘good reputation’ of the woodworker and if the owner is ‘happy’. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, CDT, SCIP Emeritus