| Author |
Message |
Walter Broner
Advanced Member
Username: walterbroner
Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2017
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 05:16 pm: |    |
Commentary on Paragraph 3.12.10 of AIA A201 says: "Such requirements are often incorrectly referred to as "design delegation" but the architect has no contractual relationship with the contractor and cannot delegate to the contractor".
Yet "delegated design" is the term one encounters most often in discussions of professional services required by the specifications to be performed by the contractor.
That commentary prefers to think of it as "allocated" design - that is allocated by the Owner (who does have a relationship with the contractor) for specific portions of the work.
So which is right, and how do y'all deal with this in your specs? |
Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 05:50 pm: | |
The contract documents are prepared by the A/E for and on behalf of the owner; thus, they are the owner's instructions to the contractor. Therefore, the A/E has not delegated anything directly to the contractor, but has allocated or assigned some portions of the work to the contractor via the contract documents.
Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, AIA
Senior Member
Username: rjray
Post Number: 157
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 05:52 pm: | |
Walter,
I agree that the phrase “delegated design is not included in AIA Document A201-2007. I am not sure of its origin, but I suspect it was from one of the commercially available guide specifications.
I also agree that the architect has no authority to delegate the design of any portion of the Work to the Contractor. But the key is, it’s the Owner, through the Contract Documents, that is delegating the design since the Contract Documents are part of the agreement between the Owner and Contractor. These documents just happen to be prepared by an architect. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 979
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 07:13 pm: | |
Under a performance specification, the Architect may establish performance criteria; for the design (usually with some physical parameters) while the specific design is left to the Contractor who usually assigns it to one or more subcontractors. The one building system which is almost always handled in this manner is the metal building.
The building in the City of Houston recognizes that certain items are procured in this manner and permits a deferred submittal of such items for review by the AHJ.
J. Peter Jordan, FCSI, AIA, CCS, LEED AP, SCIP
|
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid
Post Number: 298
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 07:19 pm: | |
Changes in terminology like this are frequently due to court rulings. Can you point me to an article that explains the basis for the change?
Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru 818-219-4937 |
Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods
Post Number: 715
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 09:28 pm: | |
I always thought delegated design terminology originated with approval agencies. |
George A. Everding, FCSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 861
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 11:28 pm: | |
"The Contract Documents are written by the a/e in the voice of the owner speaking to the contractor," as the Ronalds (Geren and Ray) pointed out. |
Walter Broner
Senior Member
Username: walterbroner
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2017
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 09:14 am: | |
Thank you everybody who contributed. I'm still left with two questions.
1. What to call this type of design in my Division 01 sections. If the word "delegated" does not appear in any contracts, how does one refer to it, so that there is no ambiguity left? Thing need to be named to be spoken about.
2. I know there was a discussion on this forum many years ago about how to treat submittals containing "allocated" design. Are they informational or action, or partially each (and how to decide which is which)? |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 10:55 am: | |
Choose your term and define it in Division 01. Define it completely and carefully to suit what it is you and the design team wants it to mean. And then use it wherever applicable. |
Richard Howard, AIA FCSI CCS LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: rick_howard
Post Number: 296
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 10:53 am: | |
The term "delegated design" has been around at least 20 years and is a fairly well understood concept even if the term is not defined in contract language. Delegation of design services to the contractor is described in AIA A201 3.12.10. ConsensusDOCS 200, Standard General Conditions, uses the words "DESIGN DELEGATION" in Article 3.15, and EJCDC has similar language in their General Conditions. ANSI/AISC 303-16 "Code of Standard Practice" uses the word "delegated" in the preface and commentary when referring to engineering of elements that the fabricator's engineer performs in preparing steel shop drawings described in 3.1.1 and 3.1.2. The authors of those documents have not felt the need to define a specific term for the concept.
By choosing this term, MasterSpec has probably done more than anyone to spread the use of the words. Their usage of "delegated design" does not capitalize the term except where standardized formatting requires it, such as an article title or paragraph heading (preceding a colon). Section 01 33 00 "Submittal Procedures" describes the concept and requirements for other sections that include it.
Note that CSI MasterFormat has Section 01 35 73 "Delegated Design Procedures" if one wanted to have a stand-alone section to define the term and amplify the General Conditions. |
John Hunter
Senior Member
Username: johnhunter
Post Number: 151
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 07:11 pm: | |
Would it be appropriate to consider the design portion of systems delivered on a design-build basis - Mechanical or Electrical for example - delegated design? |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1424
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 07:40 pm: | |
I agree with Lynn. We have a project where we were asked to call all "delegated design" "performance based design". The end result is the same -- we are asking the contractor to provide their own engineering to address the conditions that they established on the project. We also define "Performance Based Design" in Division 1 somewhere.
I should note here that there is some seminar group aimed at contractors that says "anytime you see delegated design in the specs, if means the architect isn't doing their job". I had one project where the contractor did a word search and came up with more than 100 instances of "delegated design" in the specifications -- many of them in the MEP work. We were able to argue successfully to the Owner that "delegated design" is understood in the industry and is an important way that some things -- like curtainwalls -- get designed and built in today's market. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1086
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 11:12 pm: | |
We once had a project where we were instructed to call for "engineered shop drawings" because the client did not permit delegated design. I tried explaining that the design team can design the items but that we will tend to overdesign systems and that it will cost the owner more than the delegated design would. Like talking to a wall. We wasted our time designing, then the contractor submitted their value engineering for every system we had identified. Ended up including engineering costs in their pricing. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2017 - 11:15 pm: | |
We once had a project where we were instructed to call for "engineered shop drawings" because the client did not permit delegated design. I tried explaining that the design team can design the items but that we will tend to overdesign systems and that it will cost the owner more than the delegated design would. Like talking to a wall. We wasted our time designing, then the contractor submitted their value engineering for every system we had identified. Ended up including engineering costs in their pricing. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 820
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2017 - 03:02 am: | |
Please do not use the term performance based design to mean delegated design. Performance based design term is used to mean many different things to the extent that it is meaningless. |
Walter Broner
Senior Member
Username: walterbroner
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2017
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2017 - 10:17 am: | |
To respond to Michael's question - there is no unanimity by legal-eagles about the naming of professional services required to be performed by the Contractor. At least, I have not found it reflected in the various commonly used General Conditions. EJCDC C-700 2013 does have an article 7.19 (and others) which uses the term "delegation". So this "naming" thing is tricky - when one attempts to tie Division 1 language to General Conditions, since an undefined term can become a legal minefield. Is "delegated design" like "ceiling tile" - commonly used term that's not accurate? |
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