Delegated Design for exterior HM doors

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Author Message Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 837 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 01:21 pm:    I am being asked to add language for Delegated Design of all exterior HM doors, including sealed calculations. Project is in Vegas. I asked what they want designed (these are standard exterior insulated exit doors) and didn't receive much of a response. Does anyone routinely require delegated design for standard HM doors? If so, i would love to see your language and what you ask for. TIA Nathan Woods, RA, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 919 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 01:55 pm:    I like to do delegated design for door hardware, and to do that, our door schedule identifies all the parameters and functions and specific features of a door, and the door contractor selects the specific door and hardware accordingly. Is that what they are looking for? Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 838 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 01:57 pm:    no, they want the door itself to be delegated design with sealed engineer calculations. Dennis C. Elrod, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: delrodtn Post Number: 32 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 02:14 pm:    We have never specified it that way. Sounds a bit overboard. Dennis C. Elrod, AIA David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP-a, LEED AP Senior Member Username: davidc Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2015 Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 04:09 pm:    Robin, I feel your pain, but this (hollow metal) is a new one to me. Generally, whenever I encounter a design professional (or developer or Owner) who doesn't know what they want, and thinks they can avoid getting their hands dirty by merely making a decision or committing to something, they'll invariably assume the "just write a performance spec" stance. Then the fun begins: I'll promptly concede and (somewhat joyfully) ask them for all the performance criteria they wish their [insert product/assembly here] to meet. I'll explain to them that the delegated design entity can't design "X" until they are given all the necessary performance criteria the Architect/ Owner/developer wishes the product/assembly to comply with. In the great majority of instances, they come away with the realization they don't really know what a performance spec really is, or how to respond to the simple request for the design criteria, and end up folding like a house of cards. Ultimately I end up writing a more conventional spec section that more than adequately gets the job done. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP-a Corgan Associates, Inc. Sr. Specifier, Sr. Associate Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 225 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 - 08:32 am:    Hi Robin. David makes some excellent points. I suspect that the delegated design is related to wind loads, but it could also be related to thermal performance, but thermal performance can be documented by a test report. Whatever it might be, the IBC does not require any design calculations for exterior hollow metal doors. Specifying delegated design for an exterior hollow metal door can be done, but getting a door manufacturer to submit calculations seal by a licensed engineer may be impossible. I am involved with the Steel Door Institute Technical Committee, and I suspect the SDI manufacturing members would laugh at the thought and simply not price the project. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 1598 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 - 10:33 am:    Robin, is it possible that they once did a project with custom HM exterior doors and frames that had to meet some special criteria such as oversized openings, "hidden doors" in the exterior cladding system (we used to clad HM doors with stone veneer to blend with the facade), special acoustic or security or thermal needs, etc. and now they think that delegated design is the norm since they did it before? Steven Bruneel, Retired Architect Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 724 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 - 04:33 pm:    Requiring calculations only begins to almost make sense if there are special code requirements for hurricane or blast resistance that need to be met. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 774 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2023 - 04:53 pm:    If wind load is the issue, I suggest including requirement for Miami-Dade NOA or Florida Product Approval for HVHZ for HM doors; that way you will get the engineering as it has aleady been completed and filed and avoid the expense of custom engineering for the project. Phil Kabza FCSI CCS AIA SpecGuy Specifications Consultants www.SpecGuy.com phil@specguy.com (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, October 20, 2023 - 11:28 am:    Although structural performance for the door and frame is important, the details (and engineering) for anchoring the frame to the building structure are equally important. I have begun to include a requirement for an installer certification indicating that the installation complies with the details. John Bunzick Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1927 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, October 20, 2023 - 05:09 pm:    If they are asking for delegated design, they have to advise what the performance characteristics they want are. Once you have that (assuming they make sense), you can then see if standard products meet that performance. If a manufactured and tested product is available, The only difference I can see for delegated design would be a certified report for that particular project by a particular engineer. Yet, you can get certified test reports for the product as opposed to the project. These are both effectively the same thing, IMO. Exception: some sort of highly unusual situation that requires a custom design. It doesn't seem like they know exactly what they're asking for. Ed Storer Senior Member Username: ed_storer Post Number: 98 Registered: 05-2009 Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2023 - 08:31 pm:    I found that many persons only think of specs as Proprietary (that they understand) and "Performance" (that means all other forms of specification) seldom do they actually know what "performance specifying" is. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus