Gym floor relative humidity

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Author Message Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 85 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 05:26 pm:    Folks, Has anyone ever heard of a gymnasium wood flooring subcontractor installing a data logger within a room with a maple floor to recording the relative humidity? Their statement via email states that the warranty will be void if this device is removed, tampered with, or if the relative humidity range exceeds the 15 percent range in the specifications. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 367 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 05:46 pm:    No I haven't, but I like RH testing much better than the error prone calcium cloride testing methods which more warranties are written towards. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 889 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 05:51 pm:    I think he means monitoring the ambient air humidity after installation to show that the RH within the space does not vary from the specified range. I haven't seen this done, but it does make some sense. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Richard Gonser AIA CSI CCCA Senior Member Username: rich_gonser Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 06:46 pm:    Been there done that. It is a big deal to the subs. Here in LA, there a high school that had the floor replaced because the story says buckling due to humidity caused it. Make sure the HVAC is on and the room is humidity controlled. The Maple Floor Association has some good guidelines. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 08:32 pm:    Make sure that the Mechanical Engineer agrees that this is achievable. Exceeding the humidity range for a day should not be a problem since it takes wood time to adjust to the ambiant humidity, but this time out of specification would allow the warrante to be voided. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1272 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 11:24 am:    Sure, but the gymnnasium is the one space that is almost never air conditioned in our area, even if the rest of the school is. And even then, many schools only have the offices air conditioned. I've never heard of a failure around here due to ambient humidity in the air, though I have heard of problems due to condensation forming on the slab, or moisture coming through it. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1060 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 11:47 am:    its a bigger deal in really dry climates, because a gym can get relatively humid compared to anything else. In the LA area, its typical to call for moisture content in wood products (floors, boards) in the 9% to 12% range, and if you pack the room with a bunch of sweaty kids, the floors can easily absorb enough moisture to buckle. I'm not sure how they would keep the RH down, considering what the room is used for but I've seen comparable things be an issue. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 06:26 pm:    It would appear that in order for the boards to buckle that you would have to have to keep the wood from expanding. Are there ways to design/construct gym floors so as to allow them to move? Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 368 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 06:28 pm:    We typically design the entire perimeter of the raised wood flooring to be vented. The entire floor floats above the slab, and is seperated with Stego10 mil between slab and the wood floor, as well as the below slab vapor barrier John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1276 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 08:26 am:    Installers of gym flooring usually do not make every joint tight. That way there is some room for expansion within the floor itself. We use vented base and vapor retarder as well, but the problems described above are from humidity in the air, which those measures won't solve. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 891 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 10:13 am:    I've been informed of an opposite problem on a project. The architect was informed by the owner that small gaps are starting to appear between the wood strips. This is a stage floor, not a gym floor, but what I found out was that the wood flooring was installed during our (Phoenix) monsoon period when we see higher levels of humidity. I believe, but can't prove (I wasn't involved in the construction process), that the theater's indoor environment was not stablized for normal conditions prior to installation. Now that we've returned to our normal dry weather, the wood is starting to dry out and shrink, creating the gaps. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1277 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 02:57 pm:    Yes, but once the monsoon season returns, there will be space for the floor to expand without buckling. Wood moves, you can't have both dry and wet conditions optimized with no gaps or buckling either way. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 896 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 03:23 pm:    Not really. If the environmental control system (i.e. HVAC) was operating at the time (which I suspect it wasn't), then the humidity should have been controlled to within a reasonable range so as to not significantly affect the moisture content of the wood. If the HVAC systems were not operating (this is an existing building) and the construction activities allowed extended periods of time in which doors and other openings where left open, then the humidity would have increased well above the normal level. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 05:43 pm:    So in Phoenix it is likely that you would exceed the humidity range in the warranty and thus the Owner would effectively have no warranty Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 897 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 06:10 pm:    Mark: I'm not sure what you mean. If the humidity is controlled by the HVAC systems during acclimatization of the wood materials, installation of the flooring, and operation of the building, then there is no problem, regardless of the time of year. My point is that during acclimatization of the materials and possibly during installation, the indoor humidity level was higher than it should have been. I suspect that the HVAC system was not operating at the time, doors and openings were not closed, or both; thus, the wood was exposed to moisture at a level higher than it currently is experiencing due to a stablized indoor environment. The humidity in this area is approaching its winter levels, which match or exceed the monsoon levels, so if the wood continues to shrink or does not swell back to the original joint tightness, then I think my suspicion is probably correct. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 09:44 pm:    My point is that while in a perfect environment you may be able to control the humidity these lapses in control are all too common. Knowing this the flooring installers have structured their warrnty so that they will likely have to pay off.. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 12:26 pm:    Here in the Mid-Atantic region we deal with temperature and humidity ranges all over the spectrum and rarely include humidity control (humidifiers or dehumidifiers), even with A/C. Your installers should be able to gap the floor sufficiently to prevent buckling if you're using a true floating floor. If you're using an anchored floor system you may not be allowing the floor to move enough for your conditions. You do need to allow expansion space at the perimeter as well but that is typical for most gym floor installations as a default. The shrinkage issue is much more prevalent, again even when the area has been properly conditioned prior to installation. These are large areas that are susceptable to exterior weather changes, even when your HVAC is working properly. We advise our clients to expect some gaps to appear in the winter as a general rule. This is a bigger deal with painted areas, especially when large areas are painted a solid color or when logos are applied. As to your initial question, I've never heard of a wood flooring manufacturer require a data logger and I've specified lots of gym floors. I don't even recall having that requirement for any of the theater or dance floors I've done. I'm curious as to which product and manufacturer you're using. Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 86 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 09:50 pm:    Ken, Action Flooring Systems, which I have removed from my specifications and added "No Substitutions" Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 86 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 01:05 am:    Ron - your suspicions are very likely correct, and my reasoning comes from an unlikely source - me, as a musical instrument collector. Fretted instruments built in a dry climate without a humidity-controlled environment often suffer two problems; when built during humid periods they develop "fret sprout" when the humidity drops - this is where the metal ends of the frets literally stick out from the edges of the neck (on a guitar for example). On the other hand, instruments built during dry weather absorb moisture and swell during "monsoon season" - leaving gaps at the edges of the fretboard (and often ruining decorative binding) and causing buckling at glue joints. Seems like a minor thing, but with custom instruments often priced in the $7-10k range (and up!!) it can be a real problem - so every quality maker I'm aware of (from the big guys like Fender, Martin and Gibson to small builders like Dudenbostel and Monteleone) stores lumber in humidity-controlled facilities and the production facilities are controlled as well. Without similar controls on a jobsite any non-sealed (on all sides) wood product will suffer similar shrinkage and expansion. Not only can it create gaps and "microbuckles" that are pretty much undetectable, but the wood loses some structural integrity during each cycle. It may seem like trivia - but it's a real problem for musicians in hot and cold climates, where either heaters or air conditioners run steadily 3-4 months of the year. Both suck moisture from the air, and with musical instruments small humidifiers are used inside the case to maintain a constant level (usually around 45% RH). Unusual comparison - but might be of some help. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 482 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 10:04 pm:    It is common in the southeast for school facilities to turn off their air conditioning during the summer months as a cost-saving effort. This introduces lots of potential problems, but the gymnasium floor is a particular issue. Manufacturers experienced in the various US climates will recommend subflooring systems for gym floors based upon the climate/use factors involved. For the southeast, the stability resulting from double-plywood systems may be preferable. To answer Mark's question above: That space around the perimeter of the wood floor system (2 to 4 inches typically) that allows venting also is intended to allow for dimensional change over time. Back to Ron's original posting: I haven't seen the requirement for humidity data logging in the specifications of 4 wood sports floor manufacturers that I just turned to. Your experience appears to be the initiative of one of the dealer installers, not the manufacturers. The manufacturers are only on the hook for materials that do not meet specifications - they are primarily sellers of maple flooring, along with some doodads. Most published manufacturer specs identify a specific humidity range or a percentage humidity range. They limit their warranty involvement to the initial year of use. I note that MasterSpec does not provide suggested language for an extended manufacturer warranty for this section, no doubt because there are not likely to be any offered that actually provide value to the owner once the terms and conditions are evaluated.