CAD Drawings Used as Shop Drawings

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 122 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:26 am:    Does your firm provide CAD drawings to the contractor for use as a base in the production of shop drawings? If so, what do you charge per drawing sheet? Or do you have another method for determining a fair fee? We currently have $50 per file as a default in our Division 01, but many of us believe that is a bit low. Is there an industry standard, or consensus? Nathan Woods, CCCA Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:56 am:    I have used $100 per sheet file for quite a while. That changed in 2006 to $150. Based on how our CAD files are produced, that dollar amount reflects real cost in preparing them for external use. It is not a "convienence fee" John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 475 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 12:12 pm:    We strip out certain parts of the title block, and then burn a CD. We charge by the hour at the standard rate for those doing the work. I'm not sure what it comes out to per sheet. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: markgilligan Post Number: 58 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 01:52 am:    Before we give them the drawings we require that the Contractor sign an agreement where they agree: 1) That there may be errors in the CAD files and that they should rely on the official Contract Documents. 2) That they will pay for our costs associated with the effort. We also strip off the title block, remove all details and other entities that do not show up in the hardcopy versions. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 476 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 08:46 am:    I failed to mention that we, too, require a similar signed agreement from the contractor. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:17 am:    The procedures mentioned above sound very similar to ours: the disclaimer, stripping title blocks, etc. From what I have seen at other firms, the disclaimers all essentially boil down to “use at your own risk, this is not a contract document”. Mark, I guess implicit in your comment “they will pay for our costs…” is that you are billing hourly for the time like John, rather than on a per file basis, right? Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: markgilligan Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:56 am:    We bill on a per file basis where the charge reflects our costs of providing these services. When the contractor thinks he is getting the drawings free he will often ask for copies of all of the drawings but then it costs him $150 per sheet then the number of sheets he needs goes way down. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 629 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 03:40 pm:    Be careful giving your electronic drawings out. Make sure that you make them sign a letter with all sorts of "weasel" clauses. If not then mistakes on the drawings may be used against you. We had an instance where the Contractor requested CAD drawings to layout the building. At one time we had moved the entire building and "forced" the dimension. The surveyor laid out the building according the information extracted from CAD drawing. The superintendent happened to notice something odd and rechecked our dimensions, then cancelled the concrete pour. Long story short, luckily we had indicated that the paper Contract Documents superseded any electronic document. Tom Peck Senior Member Username: tom_peck_csi Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 02:40 pm:    Would someone have some specific language for this clause that they would be willing to share? We also get requests for these files, and "CYA" sure seems to be in order here. Thanks in advance. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wyancey Post Number: 113 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 02:58 pm:    Tom, Send your e-mail address to wyancey@morrisonhershfield.com Wayne George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 03:46 pm:    Generic language...use at your own risk, and after consulting legal counsel: A. General: At the Contractor’s option, the Contractor may purchase electronic copies of CAD Contract Drawings for use in preparing submittals. 1. The Architect will furnish a disk or tape which contains machine readable information in the form of a DXF neutral format file of contract drawings for the above referenced building 2. The Architect’s fee for releasing CAD Drawings is Fifty Dollars ($50.00) per sheet. 3. The Contractor and the Architect will enter into a “CAD DISK TRANSFER AGREEMENT” prepared by the Architect, and containing the following provisions: a. Because of the possibility that information and data delivered in machine readable form may be altered, whether inadvertently or otherwise, the Architect reserves the right to retain hard copy originals of the electronic documentation delivered to the Contractor in machine readable form, which originals shall be referred to and shall govern in the event of any inconsistency between the two. b. The Contractor understands that the automated conversion (translation) of information and data from the system and format used by the Architect to an alternate system or format cannot be accomplished without the introduction of anomalies and/or errors. Therefore, and in consideration of the Architect’s agreement to deliver its instruments of professional service in machine readable form, the Contractor agrees to the fullest extent permitted by law to hold harmless and indemnify the Architect from and against all claims, liabilities, losses, damages, and costs, including but not limited to attorney's fees, arising out of or in any way connected with the modification, misinterpretation, misuse or reuse (to include any use by others) of the machine readable information and data provided by the Architect under this agreement. The foregoing indemnification applies, without limitation, to any use of the project documentation on other projects, for additions to this project or for completion of this project by others, with the only exception being for such use as may specifically be authorized, in writing by the Architect. Tom Peck Senior Member Username: tom_peck_csi Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 11:44 am:    Thanks, Wayne and George, for your replies. David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 108 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:38 pm:    Another consideration: Not all consultants allow this practice, or may have differing terms, waivers, agreements, and costs if they do. We have found this to be very common, so have included the following provisions: 1. The drawings represented in the CAD files are not Contract Documents. 2. Attached Agreement Form applies to Architectural Drawings only. If Contractor desires electronic drawing files for Drawings prepared by one of Architect’s consultants, Contractor may contact consultant directly to obtain such files. 3. Contractor shall recognize that various consultants retained by the Architect for this Project may have agreements that differ from that included in Appendix A, and may have differing costs and procedures involved with obtaining electronic drawing files. 4. Architect makes no assertion that consultants will furnish electronic files of their Drawings. Additionally, not all Drawings may be available electronically. Files generally available for transfer will be limited to an impediments file as described in the Agreement. Hope this helps. Nathan Woods, CCCA Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 73 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:23 pm:    David Combs, I disagree with the premise of your #2 clause. I haven't looked into the contract for specific language on this, but I feel that the architect is responsible for the Contract Documents (for consultants under our contract). If CAD files are going to be aquired, I feel they should be via the Architect. It's easy enough to have the waiver state, "Architectural and Consultant(s) electronic drawing files".... David R. Combs, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: davidcombs Post Number: 110 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 01:11 pm:    Nathan, While we (the architect) may allow the practice of transfering electronic files to the contractor for shop drawing purposes (for a fee and with the appropriate waiver signed and returned, of course, pretty much the same as many of the postings above), we are not in the position to force those same requirements on our consultants, even if they work for us. We have experienced what seems to be becoming common practice: That some consultants may outright refuse to provide CAD files of their Drawings, or may have a different waiver to sign (based on the recommendations from their insurance and legal advisors), or may charge a different fee from what we do. I would maintain that all three of these circumstances are beyond our control, and beyond our purview to dictate. The intent of clause #2 is to alert the contractor to this reality. And the architect is not really responsible for ALL Contract Documents: Only those that they sign and seal. So the Clause is also consistent with and maintains the differentiation between the various "Design Professionals-of-Record." George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 02:13 pm:    There are probably two different legal responsibilities at work. First, the architect has direct contractual responsibilities to the owner under the architect-owner agreement, and to the contractor (by reference in the owner-contractor agreement). Consultants to the architect have only indirect responsibilities to the owner and the contractor through their direct contract relationship to the architect. So, talking about these responsibilities, Nathan is correct: drawings should flow from the consultant through the architect to the owner and contractor. David's point, on the other hand, seems to refer to the responsibilities design professionals have to the public through their licensure. As a licensed professional, control over the instruments of service must be maintained: the architect cannot legally be responsible for the disposition of the consultant engineer’s documents. If a consultant chooses to refuse releasing CAD documents, there probably isn’t much the architect can do about it… …do about it after the fact, that is. The solution to such a conflict, I guess, is to get it straight with your consultants when you start the project. Make it clear to them what your rules are regarding release of documents, and in the best of all worlds, have them agree to the same rules. If not, then spell out in Division 01 who is and who is not releasing which documents, under which circumstances. The “if not” makes this whole disclaimer language more complicated, but certainly reinforces the point: figure it out up front. Mark Gilligan SE, CSI Senior Member Username: markgilligan Post Number: 66 Registered: 05-2005 Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:36 am:    As a consultant to Architects we would love to not have to make our CAD files availible. The perceived reality is that if you do not make the drawings availible then some Owners will go balistic. Thus we believe that it is better to make the CAD files availible with a disclaimer but it is something we do reluctantly. I would suggest that when the Architect contracts with the Owner to provide the services of certain consultants that he accepts a certain liability for the documents prepared by these consultants. In some situations third parties cannot sue the consultants unless they first sue the Architect. You are in bed with your consultants so select them well.