Archive through August 11, 2011

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Author Message David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1235 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 08:03 pm:    How do you frame a steel door in a curved gypsum board wall? Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS LEED-AP Senior Member Username: rick_howard Post Number: 255 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - 10:33 pm:    A flat door in a curved wall is not going to look very good. Why not put in a curved door? Dynamic does true curved doors in wood and can clad them if you want a metal finish. Perhaps instead on swinging on hinges, hang the door on a curved track using modern barn-style hardware. http://www.dynamicwindows.com/traditional/traditionaldoors/interior.html Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 508 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 12:02 am:    A curved glass door would be cool. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 484 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 11:35 am:    David, I have done curved stile and rail doors with curved surround (hidden frame) and curved glass by Joel Berman Studios on Granville Island in Vancouver BC, Canada at the Smed Residence in Priddis Alberta. Mogens Smed was the owner of Smed International up to the early 2000s. He had access to some wild and crazy stuff plus highly skilled craftsmen. Very expensive. Veneer was also very expensive. The curved doors and curved surrounds give the appearance of a blind door. No frame visible either side, just a 1/8" margin. Veneer on doors also extended over each side surround and over the head to ceiling in this project. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1236 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 01:49 pm:    Several of us technical architects have been trying to tell the designer that it is not possible to put a standard steel frame (with wood door) in a curved gypsum board wall. I have been searching the web for information, to no avail. Right now the thought is to make a thick wall and put the frame inside the opening. But then we have to figure out what to do about the large gaps on the frame at the exterior of the curve. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 509 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 01:54 pm:    Fill them with the designer's thick head. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 964 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 01:58 pm:    Good suggestion, but too dense to work with. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 141 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 02:08 pm:    David, My first thought was to ignore this, and the curved door design will disappear when the first cost estimate comes in. Second, to redesign, make an indented flat portion of the thick curved wall to set the door into. Make a design problem into a design feature. Align the indent with another design feature on an adjacent wall, paint it an accent color, and tell the Architect it'd be really cool. - David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1237 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 02:26 pm:    Lisa, Your solution was also suggested by the Northwest Wall and Ceiling Bureau. The curve is very slight. I think 80 foot radius. I recommend a segmented curved wall since there will be several doors in this wall. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1291 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 02:49 pm:    The idea that anything is possible if you throw enough money at it has been around for a long time. There are companies that will manufacture curved hollow metal frames and doors: Karpen and Stiles come to mind. Whether the project budget is able to absorb the cost is another story. And of course, another consideration is will anyone else appreciate the subtlety of the design? Many times a designer has something WONDERFUL in mind, and when (if) it actually is constructed, no one notices it. Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 114 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 03:23 pm:    And sometimes the "Wonderful" is solely in the mind of the designer. The hard part is knowing when something is a “pigment” of the designers imagination, and when it is achievable. I like doing research of hard-to-do things, but there is a limit. After all, the research comes out of the project design/production budget and my time might have been better spent making sure the flashing was detailed correctly. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 398 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 03:49 pm:    Assuming a 36 inch wide door, the arc length for an 80 foot radius associated with an inscribed 36 inch straight segment would be slightly more than 36-1/4 inches. (calculate it yourselves) This reinforces Lynn's comment that no-one will notice a straight door in a curved wall for the 80 radius. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1187 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 04:06 pm:    I had a designer once who designed a segmented wall and then wanted the doors to meet at 7 degrees off of horizontal in order to match the segmented wall. When I went to the project manager to clarify this, his response was "Does this guy have clouds for feet?". (and to top it off, the doors were 8'-2-1/2" tall. ) Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 292 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 05:05 pm:    First of all, is this a rated door? J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 11:51 am:    David: Do you want to frame a standard hollow metal door and frame in a curved wall? or specify a curved door and frame? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1238 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 05:26 pm:    The door will be a flat standard nonrated wood door in a flat standard steel frame. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - 06:05 pm:    It is entirely possible, given the radius, that the chord of the arc represented by the door width will be straight within the tolerances of the door frame fabricator. You might need to jury rig the jamb anchors some and probably need a bit of extra joint sealant at the top return. This would be the only way to do this with a "standard" (SDI) steel frame. The narrower the door width, the more likely this is to work. You might be able to have a custom frame (HMMA) for a tighter curve. Remember the stop at the head has to be straight and in plane with the stops at the jambs. This means that the face of the frame will be curving parallel with the wall while the stop stays in the same plane. There may be a brake press out there that has a curved edge, but I suspect it will be in a very specialized shop. Another way this could be done would be to weld on the vertical piece (face) that will be curved to the flat piece that will have a curved edge. This also can be done. Steve Taylor Senior Member Username: steveatwi Post Number: 42 Registered: 07-2008 Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2011 - 08:28 pm:    By my calculations the amount of deviation from a straight line in a four foot segment of an 80 foot radius is slightly less than 3/8". I think that if the frame is made a little oversize relative to the thickness of the wall there won't be a problem. Narrower openings will be even less of a problem.