Fire Rated Sealant Color

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1091 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 10:42 am:    Is it true a Fire department can disapprove usage of NON RED fire rated sealant? Do my peers specify color of fire sealants? Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1804 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 10:55 am:    If it were up to my granddaughters, it would be purple. But I have not, to my knowledge, specified a color. I'm sure an AHJ could disapprove of anything, though, and some might. spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 11:46 am:    We do not specify color but I have had some fire department inspections fail due to fire rated sealant not being red. Once we provided proof that the sealant was indeed rated then we were okay. We now call for a record of all fire sealants be provided to the owner separate from the typical submittal process. If it is clear in the submittals that the sealant is fire rated that does not mean the owner knows how to pull up their copy of the submittal to prove it when the fire department walks thru (sometimes years after the installation) I have also noticed that many fire departments will comment on the sealant when it is not red but they never appear to notice if the contractor has used an intumescent product around a duct with a fire damper which is potentially a much greater risk in my opinion. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 761 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 02:39 pm:    A couple of our clients prefer red. It's for their convenience, but the code official also benefits. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI ,SCIP Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1355 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 03:44 pm:    Jerome, When you say "fire rated sealant" I am assuming that you mean "firestopping". I searched the 2102 IBC and did not find any requirement that firestopping must be red in color. That said the AHJ probably prefers red so the material is easily recognized in the field. David G. Axt, CCS, CSI, SCIP Specifications Consultant/Web Publisher www.localproductreps.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 756 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 03:56 pm:    Funny, I've seen this from both sides. We've had AHJs require red material be visible during their inspection. I've also had to document that the exposed fire-rated assembly, including exposed sealant matching adjacent surfaces (not red), complied with code. The worst was having to put in red material and then covering it up with a second product. Had to get a letter from the assembly manufacturer stating that the additional material didn't impair the ability of the assembly from achieving the designated rating. What a wonderful world we live in. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 730 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 03:56 pm:    I believe that I have heard of there being "red sealants" that are not accepted as a part of a rated fire-stopping system. Don't think the fire cares what color it is. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1092 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:01 pm:    OK, so to avoid this becoming a problem in the field would it be prudent to add to the specifications a line that says: "Color of Fire Rated sealant exposed to view to be approved by Fire Marshal. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1805 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:09 pm:    What color(s) do manufacturers offer? Do they offer colors at all - or is it like a Ford auto and comes in any color as long as it's X? Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1217 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:10 pm:    I would suggest using "Fire Code Official" in lieu of "Fire Marshal." The FCO is the title used by the International Codes for the person charged with the enforcement of the code, which may or may not be the Fire Marshal. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1093 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:16 pm:    Thanks Ron, good point. Lynn, I was addressing an issue that came up on a job where a suggestion was made that in order to avoid negative comments from the FCO or even disapproval that the specifications include the color of Fire Rated Sealant exposed to view. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1806 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:26 pm:    I popped to the Hilti site, and the products I checked com in "red" or "light red". Specified Technologies showed most of their products in red. They have one product, a silicone sealant, that might not be red. It simply didn't say, but the picture looked "white" and it was for exposed applications. spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 06:25 pm:    Lynn: they are typically red but I have seen grey as well as tan/brown sealants that are fire rated. I have also seen red acoustical sealant and when the inspectors see this then they start asking why everything else in the wall is not fire-stopped properly. At which point you have to prove that the wall is not rated at all and the red sealant they see is not fire sealant. Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 10:36 am:    Looks as if we need to do two things in both the Firestopping and Sealants sections (and perhaps in Gypsum Board Systems): 1. Require that the color of firestopping sealants and other fire-resistant sealants be red, or other color(s) acceptable to the Fire Code Official or other AHJ; and 2. Require that non-fire-rated or non-fire-resistant sealants NOT be red, or another color that could be mistaken for firestopping or fire-resistant sealant. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1807 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 10:55 am:    What if: 1. the firestopping is exposed to view and red is simply not aesthetically acceptable? 2. the non-fire-rated sealant is part of a red substrate? It seems to me this is more than a color issue. It's partly a trust issue: can the installing contractor be trusted to comply with the codes and specs and install the correct materials? It's partly an installation issue: inspection of enclosed firestopping/sealant is supposed to happen before enclosure so the material is visible and theoretically can be tested. Is this requirement being stated and met? I think the first issue can be addressed by specifying and requiring qualified firms to install. The chances that they would jeopardize their certification status is very small. Perhaps speaking with the AHJ prior to publishing the Bidding documents would solve the problem; what do they require? Will the inspections happen as required by the specifications? Pre-Bid meetings can also contribute to a more seamless process. In short, discuss the issue with the proper people and resolve it early. Specify the products and installer properly. And don't worry about the color. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1094 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 10:56 am:    Good point Robert, this is why I love this forum. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1095 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 11:02 am:    Since we are talking about Firestopping, I've received objections from Contractors over the following verbage which I include in all my project specifications, any comments: "All through-penetration firestop systems will be installed by one company that will coordinate with all trades requiring through-penetration firestop systems to complete their respective installations." The Contractors usually object to my specifying one company as there are multiple subs on their jobs who retain responsibility for installing firestopping products. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1218 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 11:18 am:    I'm with Lynn on this one. However, some firestopping sealants can be painted; therefore, the sealant needs to be inspected before being painted. Jerome, as for your situation, I, too, try to get a single certified installer for all firestopping and fire-resistive joints. The "you poke it, you patch it" mentality for firestopping and fire-resistive joints does not ensure consistency or proper installation. I want someone on the job who really knows what they are doing. The contractor can complain all they want, but if it's in the contract documents to have a single installer, then they must comply. However, since I don't provide CCA services, I don't know if my clients are enforcing this requirement. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 744 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 11:33 am:    Requiring one installer, and a certified installer where that is available, is the right way to go. Bill McHugh from FCIA is the go to guy on how to do this – he’s presented frequently at the CSI Conventions over the years. The bigger and better contractors in our market insist on doing it this way because it’s ultimately less trouble for them. But you’re right, Jerry, it’s hard to get buy-in from many contractors – it's hard to break the old “he who makes the hole fills it” rule [Just read Ron's "you poke it you patch it" - once again I defer to a more concise specification]. But do you really want the least experienced mechanical or electrical apprentice slopping goo on a jobsite? That’s why you always see the slide in the powerpoint presentation showing three different colors in the same penetration. I’d love to see the UL listing for that one. To the original discussion – how long before you get the RFI asking which shade of red you want? “Submit sealant color samples”? George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Allegion PLC (formerly Ingersoll Rand) St. Louis, MO Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 762 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 12:20 pm:    Most of our clients have large facilities; nearly all of the private sector ones require use of firestopping from a single source. This color coding idea is a great idea! We should specify a red face on rated gypboard, red primer on rated hollow metal, red tint for rated glass, and red fireproofing. George, I'm sure you can get red hardware for us. To make it really easy for the code people, we should print code comments in red, and code pages on red paper. Hmm, could we do the same sort of thing for, say plumbing, using blue? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1096 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 12:26 pm:    hmmm, I think gray or brown for plumbing would be more appropriate. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 745 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 12:36 pm:    Sheldon - You asked for it, you got it: http://us.allegion.com/IRSTDocs/Chart/109144.pdf There are official colors for pipes, etc. I don't remember if it is a government standard, military perhaps, but I do vaguely remember a project where we had to color code the plumbing. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Allegion PLC (formerly Ingersoll Rand) St. Louis, MO Specified Technologies - STI (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 11:38 am:    There are no code requirements that specify that a firestop sealant or caulk must be red. In fact, firestopping sealants and caulks come in a variety of colors and custom colors from many different manufacturers. Some Firestop Sealants are sand-able and paint-able. The Product Data Sheets for the material typically will specify a color, but color hue may vary from batch to batch. An appropriate UL Listed System or Engineering Judgment should be used to ensure proper installation and type of sealant in specific penetrations, joints, curtain wall perimeter fire barrier applications or other applications. The UL Listed System or Engineering Judgment will list among other things, the rated assembly construction, max/min opening sizes, annular space, joint gaps, type of sealant, backing material requirements, penetrant types and load restrictions, etc. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1808 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 01:25 pm:    From my trusted firestopping adviser: I can’t connect to the link so I will just respond to the 3-line post below. Okay, I have to be picky. Firestop or any sealant is not “rated” (ours, or our competitors). So, I would not ever put in your specs the statement / phrase “fire rated sealant”. Designers need to be accurate or confusion gets worse on down the line. As far as the color of the firestop sealant, it would be okay to put in your specs to get approval by the Fire Marshall prior to installing. However, I have a few comments about this. 1. I would presume the Fire Marshall on a project had an issue with a firestop sealant other than red. If this is the case, they probably need to be educated because not all firestop products are red. They need to be promoting a proper firestop system, and this should be stated as well in your specifications. 2. I could see a potential problem with getting an approval by an inspector prior to ordering and installing a product. Inspectors are typically not quick to make a decision and have a lot of projects going on and my not be readily available to choose a sealant color. 3. I think the better approach, if the firestop sealant color is something other than red, is to have the contractor have the packaging and UL systems available to show the inspector. Robert E. Woodburn, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 01:32 pm:    Thanks for the correction & clarifications, Lynn, STI, and others. Point on "fire rated sealant" well taken; I should have known better. Assemblies are tested and rated, not products. Good suggestions. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 733 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 03:31 pm:    Has anyone ever successfully re-educated a Fire Marshall. In my experience, what they want, they are going to get, especially in the final weeks of construction. Just isn't worth arguing with them. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1810 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 03:35 pm:    (My trusted adviser is with Hilti, btw) AND that was her comment, not mine, about educating the AHJ. I have to agree with Peter. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1097 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 04:00 pm:    In SFL the Fire Marshall is god...what he wants he gets, so even though I appreciate Ron's advice about using the term FCO, I've been advised by my clients (usually the Architect) to use their official title, Fire Marshal aka the "Fire God" or on a rare occasion the "Fire Goddess". And re-education is out of the question unless you want to wait 90 days for a C.O. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 758 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 04:11 pm:    Great points Lynn. Oddly AHJs have, on rare occasions, been known to listen, especially when documentation was readily available to show them that they're not breaking new ground. As George pointed out, FCIA is a great resource. Anyone who is not on first-name basis with Bill McHugh should correct that ASAP. He's an incredible resource and has good rapport with AHJs. As to 'red', be careful what you ask for. In the Mid-Atlantic region it has not been uncommon for 'drywall subs' to mix red Jello (I'm not kidding) into their 'mud' to fill gaps that were supposed to receive rated penetration or joint firestop assemblies. I managed to educate a fire code official by showing him that once. Amazing how well he listened. Not a bad person, just an old dog learning new ways to be tricked. I used to limit FM or UL certified firestop installers to hospitals, nursing homes, dormitories, high-rise residential and hospitality projects (projects where people were staying overnight or not particularly ambulatory) but I am strongly leaning towards making it a universal rule on my projects. Passive fire protection is no joke. Too many sprinkler recalls, questionable water availability during emergencies, and other concerns abound when relying on active fire protection. Passive fire protection can last someone's lifetime. It's there when you need it if it's done right and is not the place to cut corners. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1098 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 04:16 pm:    Okay Lynn so when I see a reference for "Fire Rated Gypsum Drywall" on a manufacturer's website or data sheet that product does not actually exist - is that correct? For Example, I randomly chose CertainTeed: http://www.certainteed.com/learning-center/gypsum/?qid=124 Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1812 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 04:24 pm:    Just like any product or material, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you stand a piece of fire-rated gypsum drywall in the middle of a room and apply fire, it will resist for a period of time, but will burn. And if it is standing alone, the fire will go around it. Any material will resist for a period of time (some periods may not be measurable by the human eye, but still). If you are going to use the product in a system, with other materials that will also resist for the same period of time, creating an impenetrable wall that cannot be circumvented, then the fire cannot go around, but must go through. And that's your fire resistant system. And my trusted adviser was referring only to products that compete with Hilti, not all products in the world. So there. (grin) Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 763 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 05:02 pm:    FM or UL certified firestop installers is a great idea, but we have one UL certified installer and two FM certified installers in five states, and one of them has both UL and FM. Between them, I doubt they could do all the work. And then, for public sector work, there's that sole-sourcing issue... Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 764 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 05:16 pm:    "have the contractor have the packaging and UL systems available to show the inspector" Well, maybe. Ken mentioned the red Jello trick, and I have heard of painters keeping empty cans so they can prove they applied the specified amount of paint. For those who lie about what they did, fabricating evidence and writing bogus certification letters is not a problem. We use faith-based specifications, we assume that a licensed designer makes the right decisions, we trust manufacturers to ship product that meets their own specifications, we rely on installers to follow manufacturers' instructions, we assume shop drawings are not doctored, and so on. Unless we want to take on the chain-of-evidence approach LEED uses, we must rely on everyone to do the right thing, and even chain-of-evidence can be tricked. Guest (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 09:02 pm:    Note that 2013 IBC now requires field QC inspection of fire stopping systems. If you read the referenced ASTM standards, there is a whole host of requirements, e.g., verification of materials against const docs, submittals, test reports, etc. I think this goes a long way in addressing many of the above installation concerns. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1223 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 10:36 pm:    I assume you mean the 2012 IBC (there is no 2013 IBC), and the special inspections only apply to high rise buildings and building assigned to Risk Category III or IV per Table 1604.5. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com