| Author |
Message |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 953
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:14 pm: |    |
Is “Forest Green Water Reducible Metal Primer” by Delta Industrial Systems equal or better than a red oxide primer, they both meet SSPC Paint 15. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 605
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:12 pm: | |
If it's green it must be better. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:18 pm: | |
We'd understand you better, Sheldon, if you'd take your tongue out of your cheek (we need a sarcasm font) |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 606
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:24 pm: | |
It is difficult to enunciate with one's tongue in one's cheek.
I don't know if there is a sarcasm font, but there is a sarcasm mark (sarcmark). According to this article, it already existed; you just have to figure out how to insert it.
I like this one. |
Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: lazarcitec
Post Number: 954
Registered: 05-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:47 pm: | |
AHEM
A LITTLE HELP HERE GUYS
CAN WE GET BACK TO THE ISSUE AND DISCUSS SARCASM ON ANOTHER THREAD...
I'VE NOT HAD EXPERIENCE USING GREEN PRIMERS, PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE HAS? |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 607
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 02:32 am: | |
Gimme a break; it's been a long week. ;-)
How about a little help with your product? I tried Google, Bing, Yahoo, blekko, didn't find it. Do you have a link?
From SSPC:
"This specification covers a one coat shop primer for open web and long span steel joist and joist girders and for cold formed steel framing. This coating is intended to provide temporary protection to the steel joist during delivery, storage on site, and erection in an atmosphere comparable with SSPC Environmental Zone 1, normally dry. This coating is intended to be used as a holding primer that may or may not be removed before or after erection or assembly in the field.
"The specification does not address the formulation of the coating but covers the physical and performance characteristics of the coating."
This type of paint isn't based on rocket science. If you're specifying based on SSPC Paint 15, it's probably no better or worse. All it has to do is keep the metal from rusting for a short time.
A related 4specs discussion:http://discus.4specs.com/discus/messages/3077/2185.html?1141933453 |
Liz O'Sullivan
Senior Member
Username: liz_osullivan
Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2011
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 02:40 am: | |
What time is it there, Sheldon? Get some sleep! |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 608
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 08:41 am: | |
Sorry, I can't respond off subject. :-)
It's never been done before. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 416
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 09:06 am: | |
Jerome, all I can find for Delta Industrial Systems Products is http://www.deltaindustrialsystems.com/products.php which has nothing to do with primers or even anything green that I can tell.
As to water reducible metal primers and red oxide primers, you should be aware that they are solely for the purpose of protecting steel, such as joists, from flash rust. Basically they're designed to get the steel to job site. They are the lowest common denominator. If you're looking to put a finish coat on the steel, use something better. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 564
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 10:41 am: | |
Ken,
I typically spec primers by Tnemec such as Series 394 / PerimePrime which is Grayish-Green. I spec other primers from Tnemec also in greyish-green color. Depends in the VOC content for exterior versus interior locations, used as a shop primer or a field tuouch-up primer.
http://www.tnemec.com/product/view/Series-394-PerimePrime
Carboline has comparables.
Wayne |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 418
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 11:33 am: | |
I agree Wayne, but sometimes the project doesn't need anything more than a cheap primer to protect the steel long enough to get delivered, erected, and enclosed. PerimePrime can be overkill in many instances. A standard DTM acrylic shop primer can provide fast drying and superior protection to the SSPC 15 paints, providing a good surface to receive subsequent coats of latex paint (again, depends on the use and needs). If the steel will be subjected to extended exposure to severe weather even after installation, PerimePrime is certainly the way to go especially if you've got HPC or fireproofing installed afterwards.
Jerome, one other consideration is that if this is a Florida project and you have any concerns about corrosion, SSPC 15 may not be sufficient for your needs. It's cheap, but I wouldn't use it for a high-rise on the coast.
Another concern is if you've got fireproofing sprayed on your steel. As you already know, the primer has to have been tested to prove compatibilty with whatever fireproofing is being used. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 609
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 25, 2013 - 04:48 pm: | |
Good point about the location, Ken. I love visiting the oceans, but sometimes it's nice to be thousands of miles from salt water.
Our Grace rep recommends not using primer at all where fireproofing is to be applied.
It's easy to specify a high-performance primer, but it is not uncommon to find that the fabricator used their standard who-knows-what's-in-it primer. That led to removing the primer and re-priming in the field, which costs just a bit more than doing it right the first time, and, of course a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. |
Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: presbspec
Post Number: 228
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 02:14 pm: | |
Hey Sheldon, that sarcasm mark you like is called a fermata, in Music notation it extends the value of a note. kinda like this discussion. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 610
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 03:38 pm: | |
Duh! I knew I had seen it before, but all I could see was a raised eyebrow. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 528
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 04:16 pm: | |
As a practical matter, unless you are working on a very large project you are probably going to get WSWH ("Whatever S**t We Have) metal primer. As noted above, if it complies with SSPC requirements, it will do the job to protect the steel until erection. The "green" aspect may or may not be important; there are certainly a number of water-based primers that are in general use (see MPI).
What does become important is how the primer functions as a foundation for further coatings. If this is all the steel gets, then we don't have to go any further. If the primer is going to get coated with something else; e.g., typical paint topcoats, high performance coatings (especially in coastal or other corrosive environments), or spray-applied fire proofing, then you do really need to look at it further. You may have to take it off to apply a more appropriate primer, or it may serve as a foundation for a primer to the top coating. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 531
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 04:25 pm: | |
Unless you have some very unusual conditions you do not need a primer on structural steel unless you will subsequently be applying other coatings. The amount of rusting that will occur during the normal construction duration will not create problems.
In these situations the green thing to do is to do nothing. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 420
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 09:04 am: | |
I most often spec primer on joists and on perimeter steel.
Sheldon, ask your Grace rep how often they see rusted steel properly prepared to receive fireproofing. My guess is never. I've heard some folks say that the fireproofing keys in better to rusted steel but somehow that sounds flaky (get it?) to me. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 560
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 11:06 am: | |
I agree with Ken. I've heard that too. The steel has to at least be cleaned prior to application of the fireproofing.
I have specified primers under fireproofing. They should be approved by the fireproofing manufactuer. Carboline makes it easy since they manufacture both the primer and the fireproofing.
As for shop-priming of steel, I don't necessarily agree with Mark. I generally specify a zinc-rich primer on all steel. This affords better protection of the steel until it is enclosed, or if exposed, finish painted.
Some fabricators use "WSWH" to deter "flash rust", but it generally doesn't perform very well, if at all.
I worked on a project some years back in NYC. The steel arrived at the site already rusted. Turns out the fabricator's shop was located in the area of the Brooklyn docks! That's when I started specifying the zinc-rich primers. While you may not have to prime the structural steel, as Mark says, if it continues to rust on the job, it can cause staining of adjacent materials until it is enclosed. I'm not talking about the HSLA/Corten steel either. So I choose not to take any chances. In another situation, the Contractor didn't prime any of the steel, even though it was specified. Some of the interior steel was designated AESS (Architecturally Exposed Structural Steel). Because the steel did not exhibit the color of the specified primer, we were able to prove it was never primed and they had to go back and clean & prime it in the field. It ended up costing the Contractor more than if he had just done it right in the first place. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 651
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:12 pm: | |
Keeping the fireproofing on the steel is increasingly more important because of building code changes resulting from the WTC collapse. Grace did a presentation for our CSI chapter recently on this very issue - changes to adhesion, density, and inspection requirements. In a fireproofed steel building, the right steel prep and primer needs serious consideration.
By the way, Ken, light rust on reinforcing steel is okay for concrete adhesion - maybe people incorrectly interpolate that to being okay for fireproofing on steel?
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 421
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:26 pm: | |
After seeing how easy it is to knock fireproofing off rusted steel, I am a devout believer in surface prep.
Some ironworkers prefer to prime everything since it can keep there surface prep costs down in the field. So many primers have been tested with so many fireproofing products that I'm surprised when a fabricator uses a product that isn't compliant. What get me are fireproofing Installers that don't care what the surface is like that they spray. All they have to do is tell the GC that the steel isn't ready to receive their application; I'd think they'd want to get the extra $$$. Again, if no one is out there to see if it's compliant, I guess they don't care. I just don't understand how some applications pass testing and inspections. |
Robert E. Woodburn
Senior Member
Username: bob_woodburn
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:42 pm: | |
Richard mentions, "Because the steel did not exhibit the color of the specified primer, we were able to prove it was never primed..." That's one good reason to specify a particular color.
One of Tnemec's popular primers is available not only in "iron oxide" red, but also, I believe, in green and gray. I have often wondered if red primers were meant to disguise rust, while other colors were intended to make it more evident... |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 532
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 01:36 am: | |
The following was copied from the AISC web site.
10.1.1. When must structural steel be painted?
As stated in the 2005 AISC Specification Section M3.1, "Shop paint is not required unless specified by the contract documents." Therefore, fabricated structural steel is left unpainted unless painting requirements are outlined in the contract documents.
In building structures, steel need not be primed or painted if it will be enclosed by building finish, coated with a contact-type fireproofing, or in contact with concrete. When enclosed, the steel is trapped in a controlled environment and the products required for corrosion are quickly exhausted. As indicated in the 2005 AISC Specification Commentary Section M3.1, "The surface condition of steel framing disclosed by the demolition of long-standing buildings has been found to be unchanged from the time of its erection, except at isolated spots where leakage may have occurred. Even in the presence of leakage, the shop [primer] coat is of minor influence (see page 391 Bigos, Smith, Ball, and Foehl, 1954)1." A similar situation exists when steel is fireproofed or in contact with concrete; in fact, paint is best omitted when steel is to be fireproofed because primer decreases its adhesion.
In exterior exposed applications, steel must be protected from corrosion by painting or other means. Likewise, steel must be protected from corrosion in special applications such as the corrosive environment of a paper processing plant or a structure with oceanfront exposure.
[1] Bigos, J., G.W. Smith, E.F. Ball, and P.J. Foehl, 1954, "Shop Paint and Painting Practice," Proceedings of the 1954 AISC National Engineering Conference, AISC, Chicago, IL.
last modified 1 January 2006 |
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