Creteseal

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 915 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 09:51 pm:    Has anyone had any experience with this product? According to the Owner's Rep on a 500k one story outlet mall to be builtin Florida - This is a broom on application that replaces the need for a curing compound on the slab and seals the capillaries. My other question is who would specify this, if it is a curing compound is it specified by the Structural Engineer who is preparing his own specs? http://creteseal.com/download/CS2000-SprayApplySystem-Submittal.pdf Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 517 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 02:37 am:    If it just provides curing what is the motivation to specify the product by name? Is it compatible with all flooring finishes? John Hunter Senior Member Username: johnhunter Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:21 pm:    We have experience with the product. It is installed day-of-the pour in lieu of curing compound but is primarily intended to provide moisture vapor emissions control. It is considerably less expensive than the epoxy-type moisture vapor control systems (Koester, among others) that involve shot-blasting, etc. My experiences on institutional projects have not been great, but for a retail environment it may be OK. Because it's primary function is preparation of concrete slabs for moisture-sensitive flooring, we specified it in Division 09. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 354 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 03:58 pm:    I stay away from the spray-and-pray systems. If you'd like a primer on it, contact the folks at Sinak Corp (www.sinak.com). Craig and Bob Higgins can answer all your questions. They used to advertise an excellent potassium silicate product and don't really advocate it anymore for a number of reasons. I'd be happy to tell you more if they aren't responsive. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 04:29 pm:    Ken - I concur. I basically put this and similar products in my "snake-oil" file. In my previous job, we had a couple of contractor'sd whisper in the client's ear that this was the greatest thing since sliced bread for moisture vapor emissions. As for compatability, Mark is correct with his question - we had a flooring contractor refuse to install his floor if we used the Creteseal product on the concrete. However, he just promoted another "snake-oil" product. I prefer to spec the more "bullet-proof" products like AquArmor by Sherwin-Williams/General Polymers or similar. P.S. Ken - is everything okay in Charlotte? I didn't see the office on the closure list. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 355 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 05:00 pm:    Good point Rich. There are a number of flooring manufacturers who won't warrant installation over silicates regardless of who makes them at this point. Jerome, what kind of flooring is going down on top of this? There are many good systems available now. I've had excellent results with Koster, Aquafin, and Sinak, but Ardex and Mapei make good systems too from what I've been told. Thankfully Charlotte has been spared. We have snow to the north and west and wind and rain to the east. I went to my nephew's wedding Sunday in DC and decided to drive back to Charlotte Sunday night. Looks to have been a good decision, even with having to spend the night at a roadside motel once I hit Carolina. My prayers go out to family, friends, and everyone in Sandy's path. Got a cousin on FDNY who tends to care more about everyone else; scares the heck out of me, and I don't hear about what he does until afterwards. Waiting to hear back from family that he's okay. The way he talks, he's the cautious one. Those guys are real heros. Hope they have an easy time of it this time around, but it sure doesn't sound like it. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIPa, LEED AP BD+C, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 272 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 10:14 am:    If it is applied in conjunction with the pour, I would specify it in Division 03. Like Ken though we don't advocate this product either. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1460 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 10:44 am:    This doesn't look like a curing compound to me - it looks like a hardener. Maybe that's because it is? The questions of whether hardeners can be used as curing compounds, and whether they slow down the rate of moisture vapor transmission is the issue. Does anyone know, or has anyone checked, ACI publications on this issue? They have done a lot of research on this sort of thing and may have useful information. Hardeners as a category should not be a big issue - they are used in warehouses and are an integral part of polished concrete applications. Using them where finish flooring is used seems odd to me. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 357 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 11:23 am:    I've used silicates as curing compounds for about 15 years now despite the fact that they do not comply with ASTM C309 or C1315. In fact, they are now specifically excluded by those ASTM Standards due to the extensive desire to use them that way. The standards are for film-forming curing compounds and silicates do not form a film, they react chemically with the cement. They are, in fact, predominantly used as hardeners and densifiers. Some can work as curing compounds in some instances, though I question if they'll work when your mix has a lot of slag or fly ash since silicate needs the chemical make-up of cement to react with. A few manufacturers advocate their use, such as Ashford Formula and Sinak, while many do not. Sodium silicates are frequently used for curing, hardening and densifying. Potassium, magnesium and other silicates are sometimes advocated as being able to block vapor and, in theory, that might work if they are able to penetrate into the matrix before they react. Unfortunately the laws of physics and chemistry often prevent this from happening. Any number of factors can prevent these systems from working. Using silicates shouldn't prevent subsequent application of the epoxy systems, but why spend even more money for something that is so completely hit-or-miss? Besides, as soon as your concrete cracks you no longer have a continuous barrier and vapor can migrate through. That voids the silicate warranties as far as I know. anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 07:12 pm:    Contractor informs us that Creteseal, one of our listed surface applied vapor retarder product manufacturers, is no longer in business. Website is still up and running, but a call to their 800 number just got ringing and ringing - no answering machine, nothing... Does anyone have some info on the claim that this company is kaput? Would very much appreciate it! thanks [Just called the 714# I have. Also just rang and rang. Sent an email to my last contact there. Will post more when I learn more. Colin]