1" Insulating Glass in Entrance Doors...

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Author Message Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 394 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 04:14 am:    I have recently been advised by one of my architect clients that a contractor and/or sub does not recommend the use of 1" insulating glass in aluminum entrance doors because the extra weight will wear out the pivots. I find this is inconsistent with my experience. Have I been missing something that I should be aware of? "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 501 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 10:48 am:    A good hardware consultant should be able to verify this. I think there could be a concern if you are using the offset pivots that are typical of storefront operation; don't think this would be true with center pivots. The insulated glazing unit significantly adds to the weight of the unit (may be as much as 1/3 more depending on size and style of door). As you have probably found, 1-inch IGUs can't be installed in typical 1-3/4 doors without the addition of a "clip-on." On some installations in heavily trafficed areas, it would be wiser to go to the heavier 2-inch doors. I have also found in our market that if the doors are a relatively minor portion of the exterior envelope, an energy analysis will show that insulated glazing is not required at these locations. Results will be dependent on location and building configuration. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 641 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 10:52 am:    Only if they provide pivots that aren't robust enough for the weight. There are all sorts of pivots for all sorts of applications - after all,the heaviest vault doors and lead lined doors are usually supported by pivots. I suspect the aluminum door manufacturer is providing the hardware and has a standard they use that might not be appropriate. Have them provide the right pivots - usually the manufacturers literature has a maximum weight for each pivot. Also consider continuous geared hinges - I'm compelled to mention Ives first, but Hagar, Select, Markar and others all make comparable products. My experience has been that continuous geared hinges are replacing pivots as the preference for exterior aluminum storefronts in this area of the country. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 642 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 10:55 am:    Offset vs. center: Yes, there is a mechanical advantage to center pivots all other things being equal, but again, if you get the right pivot rated for the weight, offset will work. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 544 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:21 am:    I did doors & hardware for a number of years and have specified aluminum entrance doors with 1" I.G. and have not experienced a problem. I agree with everyone that it goes to hardware and the door thickness. You can use offset pivots as long as you use the steel (needle bearing) bearings and not the bronze bearings, which are softer and wear faster. Center pivots work better in this application as well. From a design standpoint, using I.G, units in the doors gives a more even appearance withing the curtain wall system as opposed to using single glazing. I also always specified the entrance door hardware in 08 71 00. If the door fabricator is supplying the hardware, it is probably his standard "off the shelf" products which generally are not suitable for a heavier door. Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 395 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:39 am:    Our contractor's objection also included the increase in the difficulty to operate the heavier door especially for handicapped persons. I have always assumed that is one of the functions of a properly selected closer. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 545 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:47 am:    It's beginning to sound like the Contractor just doesn't want to do it. They seem to always try and find some excuse. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 643 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:51 am:    "...that is one of the functions of a properly selected closer" AMEN. I really wish aluminum storefront guys would get out of the door hardware business and stick to what they do best. (Did I say that out loud?) George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 11:53 am:    There are alternatives to pivots. I've been specifying continuous hinges for glazed aluminum doors since 1990 or so. They are strong, spread out the weight among many fasteners, and look great. They're especially good for high-traffic doors. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 582 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 01:24 pm:    Check accesssibility codes. It seems to me that there will need to be a power assist on the accessible entrance and exit doors in order to comply. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 546 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 01:43 pm:    That was going to be my next comment. Code aside, it is just good practice to include power-assist operation on entrance doors. The end result far outweighs the initial cost. Why make life difficult for the disabled and the elderly? If you have a pair of doors, put operators on both leaves. It gives people in wheelchairs more room. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 431 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 03:10 pm:    I have heard other arguments agains IG at entrance doors, such as, it is a waste of $$ because the doors are opening and shutting all the time anyway. Annon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 10:22 am:    I have always been told not to use insulating glass in aluminum entrance doors because the movement of the doors will break the seal of the glass, negating the insulating value. scott piper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 03:09 pm:    We do not use anything but continuous gear hinges on exterior doors and have had no issues. Of course not all hinges (or pivots) are the same so you have to be careful. The other consideration we have taken into account in some areas is the cost of replacement at insulated glass in the exterior doors. In institutions we always attempt to have a vestibule situation that allows us to omit the insulated glass at the exterior. Vandals can make for costly repairs on exterior glass so we often us single glazed laminated safety glass. Tempered would also work very well but when you shoot it with a pellet from an air rifle the glass shatters very spectacularly. Once kids realize this they can not break them fast enough. Boys will be Boys I guess. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 03:15 pm:    Generally, when I've specified I.G. units at entrance doors, it was a design/appearance issue and not an energy issue. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 06:56 pm:    Unless the door is a simple swing door, we would usually specify 1/2-inch monolithic glass or similar thickness laminated glass for an entry door. I prefer laminated glass because you can build it with the same types of glass that go into the IGU units for the project and any surface coatings on the #2 or #3 face are protected. That said, I do not see how weight is the issue. The difference between monolithic or laminated glass and a typical IGU is minimal. There is virtually the same amount of glass plus a lot of air (or gas). The only additional weight would be in the perimeter seals and that isn't very much. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 502 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 10:39 am:    1/2-inch (12 mm actually)???? Down in this part of the country, the default is 6 mm tempered glass so the insulated glazing would be a significant upgrade. We do the 9/16-inch "storm glass" where debris impact resistance is desired (in hurricane zones). You are correct in that there is little or no difference in the weight between the 12 mm tempered lite, the 9/16-inch, and the 1-inch IGU. The cost difference between the laminated unit and the IGU is also minimal (two sheet of glass that go through a fabrication process), but is between 3-1/2 and 4 times the cost of the monolithic unit. The laminated units offer significant advantages over tempered units where safety glazing is required. However, when I found out about the cost, I stopped pushing for laminated glass. We can replace the tempered glass 3 times for what the original laminated lite would cost.