Foam insulation fill for structural d...

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Author Message Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, July 16, 2012 - 10:15 am:    I have never actually provided this before - but on a current project for a very energy sensitive client, we are looking to fill structural steel door jambs with foam insulation (essentially tube type shapes) and also to fill hollow metal doors frames similar. I understand that on some isolated pojects, we have called for this before. The idea being that holes would be drilled in the frames and then plugged with sealant after the foam was installed. However, it appears that when this was indicated in the past, a specific spray foam was not specified. Have not had success in idenitying a specific foam insulation product so far. A number of spray foam reps have indicated that this is extremely difficult to ahieve without having a multitude of holes because the spray foam will set before it fills the voids. Spray celulose products have been suggested, but I am not comfortable of filling with a foam that uses water as the vehicle. Does anyone have a recommended foam product to achieve this type of installation? Plan was to fill with foam after in place. Or an alternative approach that has been successful. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 460 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Monday, July 16, 2012 - 12:12 pm:    What we do these days is use the 3" deep studs called King studs (sometimes refered to as Kong studs also), instead of double stud jambs. By using the heavy 14 gauge King stud, the interior cavity of the stud is open and easy to fill with standard batt insulation. Contractors love the speed of assembly, and you get a better installation out of it. Approved in hospitals (OSHPD) and Schools (DSA) here in California, and popular for commercial work because it saves time. http://www.westsidebmc.com/Files/Cache/file_166942.pdf?time=634780271736744990 Ronald J. Ray, RA, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: rjray Post Number: 103 Registered: 04-2004 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 09:29 am:    Nathan, Could you email me a detail of the "King" stud installation please? ronald-ray@sbcglobal.net Thanks. Ron Russ Hinkle, AIA, CDT, LEED AP Senior Member Username: rhinkle Post Number: 104 Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 09:59 am:    Nathan what you indicate is good for the jamb but does not answer the question about filling the frame? or am I not understanding this correctly. It seems to me that a thermally broken HM frame would be more effective than filling the frame with insulation. Just as putting insulation between metal studs is not effective, it seems that the weak link is still the frame itself. Russ Hinkle Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 435 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 10:25 am:    Russ makes a good point (although thermally-broken frames obviously are not applicable to steel tube frames). Also, what about possible shrinkage of the foam upon curing, and so pulling away of the foam from the surfaces of the frame? I think the time and cost savings achieved by stuffing the frame cavity with glass fiber insulation makes up for whatever energy savings there may be from using foamed in place insulation for this application. Keep the big picture in mind. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 461 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 01:12 pm:    Russ, the door frame can be filled with Thermafiber or expansive foam. Foam being cheaper. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 100 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 01:17 pm:    Guys, if you put foam into the wall at the exterior, would not that qualify for it to be a NFPA 285 tested assembly? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1031 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 01:40 pm:    The foam is not in the wall assembly--it's in the door frame--so not subject to NFPA 285. All it needs to comply with is Section 2603.4.1.7. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1569 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 12:16 pm:    Any thoughts on filling those door frames with the foam after frame installation? Client is concerned with air flow in and out of room(s) and wants to fill the frames with foam to eliminate that. (Drilling multiple holes in the frames seems an aesthetic no-no, but they're not my door frames, I guess). Appreciate any input at this point, positive and negative. Thanks. John Hunter Senior Member Username: johnhunter Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2012 - 02:04 pm:    If the structural jambs are continuous between the exterior and interior, it would seem that the insulation inside the steel shape wouldn't do much to mitigate the cold-bridging inherent in the use of the steel shape. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1449 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2012 - 03:50 pm:    Air infiltration my be better handled with a well-designed sealant joint at the exterior, and maybe interior too.