White Anodized Aluminum

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 808 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 06:39 pm:    Seems at least one aluminum fenestration manuf is offering opaque white anodize finish on aluminum with a 5 yr warranty - is anyone else offering this finish - Any reason I should not be excited about this option in lieu of a white painted aluminum ESP? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 633 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 09:58 pm:    YKK? They did a presentation for us several years ago, and had introduced the white anodized then. Seemed like a good product at the time. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 809 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - 10:06 pm:    Yes it is a YKK product, so is this finish available from any other manufacturers? I emailed Tammy at Linetec to see why they do not offer it....not many in SFL know this option exists. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 515 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:21 am:    I prefer the Kynar resin-based paints (i.e. Duranar) over anodizing, but then that's me. I've seen too much chalking or pitting with anodized finishes, especially near the Ocean. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 810 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:25 am:    The following is a response to my query from Tammy Schroeder at Linetec: Linetec does not offer a “white anodize” White “anodize” is not a true anodize finish. The white comes from an E-coat paint finish that is applied over an unsealed anodize. Because it is an e-coat paint, the white will chalk, fade and mar. It is not abrasion resistant like a Class I Architectural Anodize, it does not have metallic luster like anodize, and it will not perform like a Fluoropolymer (Kynar) paint when exposed to UV. It is a paint finish over an unsealed anodize finish. An anodize finish gives wearability and durability, while a paint finish gives endless color choice and good weatherability. An anodize finish should be chosen for projects that require hardness, strength and durability, while a painted finish should be selected when color is required and long-term weatherability. The anodizing process employed for architectural industry is most often the Two-Step Electrolytic Anodize. The actual anodizing and coloring of the aluminum occur in separate steps of the process. The anodizing step takes place in a tank that contains a solution of sulfuric acid and water. The tank is charged with electrical current, and aluminum oxide is formed on the surface of the aluminum. After anodizing is complete, the parts can be immersed in an optional coloring tank, to achieve bronze or black tones instead of the standard clear or silver finish. In the coloring tank, the anodized aluminum is immersed in a bath containing an inorganic metal such as tin, cobalt or nickel, which are deposited in the anodic pores by means of electrolytic current. After anodizing and coloring, the material is sealed in a mid-temperature hydrothermal seal and then given a final hot water rinse. This last, important step assures that the high-quality anodized finishes will maintain their beauty and durability for many years. With “white anodize” the parts are placed in the anodize tank, and left unsealed so a white colored paint can be applied over the top. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1517 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:35 am:    I think we need a response from YKK, then, for their explanation. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 811 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:39 am:    You read my mind Lynn, I am forwarding Tammy's response to my YKK rep, hopefully he will respond in a timely manner. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 11:55 am:    Jerome, thanks so much for posting the explanation from Tammy. I love this forum. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 812 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 12:11 pm:    Cudos to Colin, 4specs is the first place I look for spec research and this discussion board has been such a tremendous help...I can not work without it. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 813 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 01:10 pm:    Richard I do agree, however one of the questions that my clients ask is what is considered "near the ocean"? - actually there is salt in the air thruout Florida, trying to get a developer to use a resin based finish in Orlando, or for that matter in West Miami is difficult, Kynars and Duranars are great products, but they cost a lot more than acyrlic or polyesters...and cost is paramount these days. I just sent an email to my local PPG Coatings rep, asking what is considered near the ocean, with the newest warranties that may not be a consideration any more, though you and I based on our experience will have a different opinion. I am apalled when a client insists we spec acrylic on aluminum on Miami Beach, but it happens way to often. Has anyone done research on this, what constitutes "near the ocean"? Perhaps i should start a new discussion on this. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 516 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 02:18 pm:    Jerome - Yes, Florida has the Ocean on both coasts. Without knowing the distance across, I would say anywhere in Florida is near the Ocean. I live and work in Southern California, and am near the Ocean (within 6-10 miles or so). Since corrosive environments can be pretty much anywhere, the proximity to the Ocean may not be an issue. As for clients "insisting" on certain products, it's our job to educate them. Remember that the Client is always right, even when they are wrong. So have your CYA letter ready. You can always paint the aluminum with products from Carboline, Tnemec, etc. You should also check with your paint reps for the acrylic, but I don't think it will hold up as well. Thanks for sharing the response from Linetec ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 301 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 03:55 pm:    When I was in college, 'near the ocean' meant I could leave class, drive to the ocean, and be back in time for my AM classes the next day. I have no idea what it would mean in terms of corrosion. Having started my career in Washington, DC, we considerd anything within 2000 miles of Capitol Hill to be under the influence of a corrosive atmosphere. As to use of urethanes over epoxies vs. field-applied PVDF, vs. other high-performance coatings, cost has always been prohibitive when compared to anodizing or shop-applied PVDF, even when applying an additional clear coat at 'corrosive' conditions. Acrylics, polyesters, and similar products are fine if owners want a costly maintenance program on their hands. As much as I like YKK, I don't understand applying acrylic over anodizing which is what I've heard they do when providing some of their 'specialty' anodized finishes. Acrylics yellow and tend to fail after about 10 years under the best of conditions. I try to remind myself that very often people have more dollars than sense. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1312 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 04:40 pm:    YKK? Don't they make zippers?! Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 186 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 04:56 pm:    Jerome, Thanks for this interesting thread. I would assume that everything in Florida is near the ocean, just like everything in Great Britain or Japan is near the ocean. Tammy, Thanks for this description of anodizing. I'm going to save it. I think our client architects usually select aluminum finishes by color, not function. - Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 351 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 05:31 pm:    There is also near the ocean and really near the ocean. In San Francisco where I live and work, once you get out within a couple miles of the ocean in the "Avenues" of the Richmond and Sunset districts, you quickly learn that only bronze or Type 316 (or even better) stainless steel will hold up for exterior hardware items and fixtures. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 814 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 05:32 pm:    David, YKK (Yoshida Kogyo Kabushikikaisha) makes everything from Z to A, and damn if you are not correct they do makes millions of Zippers each day (tidbit for those of you that enjoy learning mundane new things), thank god Tadahiro Yoshida the founding chairman's last name didn't start with K,I doubt KKK would go over as well as YKK...and why am I spending my precious time telling you all this - its just been one of those days where I'd rather not be an architect or specwriter, actually I wish I had a penny for every zipper these guys manufacturer, wouldn't that be awsome. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1518 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 05:48 pm:    And how many of you looked at the zippers on your apparel to check if it was manufactured by YKK? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 815 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 05:52 pm:    I put a call into Malcom Brant, head honcho at Windsor Metal Finishing (anyone working in the Southeast, remembers Fred Dula of Stirling Dula Railings, after Fred sold his business he went to work for Windsor) they provide both liquid and powder finishing of aluminum based in Central FL, another good resource esp for Florida work, I will post his comments on this current discussion, several years ago we had a similar conversation and the distance was set at within 5 miles as the bird flies from the ocean for a 5yr Kynar warranty...but warranties seem to change so often. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 816 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 05:59 pm:    Isn't there a building somewhere shaped like a zipper, with it partially open as the building entrance, or is that just a nightmare I've had... Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 817 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 06:02 pm:    From Windsor's website, warranty statement: Windsor Metal Specialties and their suppliers of Kynar 500® or Hylar 5000® coatings require that coated products that are located less than one mile from the seashore (salt water) be systematically fresh water rinsed at least annually so as to prevent the accumulation of salt deposits . Homeowner or building owner is required to keep records of such maintenance for the warranty to be enforceable. Sure, my clients are definitely going to abide by that requirement... Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 818 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 06:20 pm:    Steve, it has been recommended to us to spec Type 316L for jobs on Oceanfront property, seems to hold up better with minimal additional cost...but I don't have any experience on that perhaps someone could offer their guidance on the use of Type 316L. Type 316L definition: Type 316L is an extra-low carbon version of Type 316 that minimizes harmful carbide precipitation due to welding. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 579 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 06:41 pm:    Aaargh! Anodize is a verb, not a noun or an adjective. Anodizing, when used to describe the process, is a gerund, the noun form of the word anodize. Anodized, when used to describe an object that has gone through the anodizing process, is an adjective. Despite Linetec's literature, "anodize" is not a finish. And then there's "install" used as a noun... Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 819 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:03 pm:    Tim Counts representing YKK response (included documents, please contact me at lazarcitec@msn.com if you want copies): "While I agree with a few of Tammys comments, mainly concerning theanodizing process itself; I and YKK AP take great exception to most of her comments. Furthermore, it should be noted that AAMA has also taken exception to most of her opinions and comments as they have given YKK's Anodized Plus a separate designation and many of her claims referring to the process, whether utilizing a clear topcoat or white pigmented topcoat are simply not true as it relates to performance. I am sure Tammys comments were perhaps based on incorrect or inconcise information but rather than debate these items on a point by point basis, I have attached four documents for your review. I have shipped you Anodized Plus samples in each of the colors we produce and we welcome you to test them in any way you wish." Damn, did I start armageddon among alumium finishers? Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 820 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:07 pm:    Sheldon, what ever you are on, I want some!...seriously in high school my English teacher thought my future was in writing...than I became an architect, than a specwriter - grammar went out the door -adjectives, verbs, nouns are just words to me now. Still no one has responded regarding the zipper building inquiry? I saw the cute graphics of the zipper high rise, not what I envisioned - this was a one story building that opened like a zipper - maybe going to sleep will help, if I take melatonin tonight I should have a few nightmares, maybe I'll dream of zippers. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 821 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:11 pm:    just received by coincidence a joke that sort of fits here, hope it doesn't get bleeped: WARNING If you buy stuff on line, check out the seller carefully. Be careful what you purchase on eBay. A friend spent $50 on a penis enlarger. Bastards sent him a magnifying glass. Instructions said, "Do not use in the sunlight" I don't know, it made me laugh.... Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 156 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:20 pm:    Jerome I just googled Zipper Building and amazingly there are several photos of different buildings ranging on unzipping... https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+zipper+building&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=V1r_T7a_JcLoqgH8o9DqBA&ved=0CE4QsAQ&biw=1680&bih=946 Pretty amazing. I would never work in the one that seems to be split into a downward V shape design. No matter how well I knew the design team! I mean, I can barely walk on sidewalk grates...well...I cannot walk on any sidewalk grates...one of my big fears...I know all to well these are last thing on some of my favorite engineers to do list and usually fabricated poorly. I can see myself falling down three stories or more and last words of mine...I knew it! LOL Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 822 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:26 pm:    Ahh yes catch basin grates - my fear as I walk across a parking lot is that somehow my car keys will far through the grate and I will have to retreive them...or in my current state pay someone to retreive them. thanks for googling,,, Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 823 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2012 - 07:35 pm:    wow Melissa, I love the pond coping - very inventive...see what you started David? Maybe we can get YKK to start a Zippers in Architecture competition...knowing these guys they probably have done it already. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 119 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 09:18 am:    Those of us old enough to remember the whimsical Best Products stores by the New York firm SITE (Sculpture-In-The-Environment), built between 1970 and 1984, may remember the first of the nine projects which was referred to as "The Peeling Store" in which the corner of the brick facade peeled or leaned away from the building like it was being unzipped. The store in Houston (since demolished) was located on Kleckley Drive and had a brick parapet which tumbled down to the entrance canopy. Since the canopy was a simple aluminum and steel pipe structure I wonder what supported that mass of "brick" that seemed to rest on top of it. Soon after my wife and I married I bought her a marble rolling pin and slab from that store. Fortunately she has only used those to make filo dough and lefse* and not as a behavior modification tool for a recalcitrant spouse. *Her Norwegian ancestry added with a passion for Mediterranean cooking explains my personal "girth of domestic bliss." If Colin will allow here is a link: http://siteenvirodesign.com/projects/best Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1519 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 10:15 am:    I remember the "crumbling" facades of the "Best Products" stores. There was one in Milwaukee, too, with a crumbling corner. (type "Best Products facade" into Google Images search to see some) John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1418 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 11:39 am:    The question of what consitutes a "marine environment" is not as straight forward as simply a distance from the ocean. Weather patterns vary, and some corrosive compounds in the air can come from other sources such as industry. De-icing salt usage also affects atmosheric salt content, and can create localized corrosion effects (such as a door at a sidewalk). The Nickel Institute has a good booklet about using stainless steel for corrosion resistance, which can be interpreted for use of aluminum. It also has maps of the US showing relative levels of corrosion potential. Find it here: http://www.nickelinstitute.org/TechnicalLiterature/Reference%20Book%20Series/StainlessSteelsinABC_GuidelinesforCorrosionPrevention_11024_.aspx As few as five years ago anodizing was more expensive than Kynar coatings, due in part to the more difficult environmental requirements governing the chemicals (and perhaps energy) used in anodizing. Has anyone thoroughly researched this issue recently to see if market forces have reversed this cost differential? John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 559 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 11:46 am:    I had a firm principal tell me he wanted the storefront framing to have a Kynar anodized finish. Another client fired (after I got paid). That sort of ignorance is too risky. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 517 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 03:42 pm:    Jerome - Type 316L stainless is the most corrosion-resistant of the stainless steels. I've specified it on a number of projects. I also have a Naval Architect friend who would concur. He also has said that the cost differential is not that great. Without having seen the YKK documents, I still find it hard to believe that Linetec could be as incorrect as the YKK rep. states. Since it sounds like the "white" anodizing is not a true anodized finish, I would stick with the Kynar/Hylar based products. If you opt for the Carboline/Tnemec products, stay away from the epoxies and go with the aliphatic polyurethanes. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 04:36 pm:    Richard, is 316L the most corrosion-resistant stainless? A recent Construction Specifier article (Sept 2011) implied that 2205, 904L and 317LMN are more corrosion-resistant, especially 2205 (a high-strength "duplex" stainless, whatever that means), especially when regular cleaning is not contemplated. But are any of those readily available for architectural applications? The article was not as specific as I would have liked in comparing these highly corrosion-resistant steels; that part must have been edited out... Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 824 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 05:09 pm:    Thanks Richard, good to get a heads up once and a while. In regards to alumininum extruded finishes most Florida architects specify a Fluoropolymer like Duranar or Kynar because they have been field tested for up to 40 years in South Florida. As of 1/2/12 PPG's warranty for Duranar allowed a 20 year warranty with the use of a chrome phosphate pretreatment, when the pre-treatment is chrome free, film integrity is not warranteed at all within one mile of sea water. PPG has advised today that the current warranty I have on file is still valid...so the bottom line is if you want a 20 yr warranty in Florida within 1 mile of sea water you must specify an inhibitive flash primer (strontium chromate)over chrome pre-treatment, a Fluoropolymer color coat, and a Fluoropolymer clear coat. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 518 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 05:11 pm:    Robert, I did not see the article. To the best of my knowledge and experience, the other types of stainless steel are not readily used in the architectural world to date. You might want to talk with the Specialty Steel Industry of North America (SSINA), or checkout their website at www.ssina.com. Wikipedia also has a very good overview of stainless steel. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 825 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Friday, July 13, 2012 - 05:14 pm:    In regards to the title of this thread - White Anodized Aluminum -aaargh - the jury is still out, most everone I have spoken to have their concerns, I guess the dicussion on that product will continue. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 303 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, July 16, 2012 - 09:43 am:    "AAMA has also taken exception to most of her opinions and comments as they have given YKK's Anodized Plus a separate designation" Aluminum Association has a designation for Class 2 anodizing but I'd only use it for interiors. Just because there's a standard for it doesn't mean it's the right product to use on our projects. Again, I like YKK. I've had good results with some of their products and the YKK reps I deal with are quite exceptional. I just wonder whether anodizing isn't becoming an outdated process considering all other options. I agree that if you're going to use PVDF you need to use chromate to do it right, even for powder coat applications, but it still does not seem as environmentally unfriendly as anodizing. Does USGBC say anything realistic about this comparison yet? Last I checked all they cared about was eliminating the chromate pretreatment in the PVDF coating system with little regard about the long-term effects. Adding an 'organic sealer' to close the pores of aluminum with anodic coatings may be a good short term solution, but there's no way I'm going to believe that an acrylic or similar coating over anodizing is equivalent to a 2605 PVDF. Now if they wanted to put a clear PVDF over the anodizing that may be interesting, but then would they need to comply with AAMA 2605 instead of AAMA 611? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 634 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, July 16, 2012 - 12:30 pm:    Sheldon's comment about anodize as adjective sent me in search of a favorite Ogden Nash poem: Remember, my son, so long as you live “Gourmet” is not an adjective Heed my advice: Take to your heels From the joint that boasts of gourmet meals And let the gourmaitre d’ unleash His gourmake-believe on the nouveau riche. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Randall A Chapple, AIA, SE, CCS, LEED AP Senior Member Username: rachapple Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2005 Posted on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 05:29 pm:    2205 is becoming more available for architectural use. In areas of the world such as the Middle East 316 Stainless Steel is not sufficient for corrosion control. Also it is my understanding that there is no difference between 316 and 316L with regards, to corrosion control. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 519 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 03:27 pm:    The following is from a Naval Architect friend of mine who deals with stainless steel and corrosion issues on a daily basis. The work he does is about as close to the Ocean as you can get: "2205 is much higher tensile, so is harder to form, but does have better corrosion resistance than 316 series. 316L is much better for corrosion when there is welding involved, but otherwise essentially identical to 316, just lower carbon content. I always spec 316L, as it's available and simple to form." Something to think about when specifying stainless J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 639 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 11:40 am:    Back to the YKK finish discussion. One of my clients wants to use their AAMA 612 finsh which is described as "unique non-aqueous, electrodeposited organic seal" applied over the anodic finish. For this project, the sealer would be clear over a clear anodized finish. I do want to talk to the YKK rep more since the literature doesn't really talk about the thickness of the anodic coating. They say that this finish is more resistant to damage from concrete and motar droppings and are offering a 5 year finish warranty that requires regular, documented cleaning. I am not interested in the "white anodized" finish, but in the clear finish. I have had conversations with a competing rep who used to install storefront who says that it just doesn't hold up. Anyone else out there have any more recent experience?