Operable Glass Wall-fire rated

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Author Message Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 180 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 01:25 pm:    I have an Architect-client who wants an operable (preferably horizontal folding) partition made of glass or other translucent material, with a two hour rating. I believe this is for an interior location. I doubt this is possible, but thought I'd ask if anyone had ideas or suggestions. Especially suggestions that I could repeat to the client. - Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 125 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 01:41 pm:    He/she looks at the world through rose-coloured glasses!! (at least in Canada, hence the Blue Rodeo song reference) Building codes here limit the amount of glass in a one hour fire resistance rated assembly fairly heavily, let alone in a two hour rated assembly! If it wasn't operable, you could consider a deluge window sprinkler system, but those are not cheap either! Ride it like you stole it!!! Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1023 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 01:48 pm:    I doubt you'll find anything that has been tested. I don't know of any assembly that would meet those requirements. Why a 2-hour rating? Ratings for openings are set at 20 min., 45 min., 1 hour, 1-1/2 hours, and 3 hours. In what type of assembly is this opening to be installed? Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 272 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:04 pm:    If it's serving as a wall assembly I presume opening ratings wouldn't apply. How would you ensure that the 'wall' would close and create a rated assembly in a fire event? Considering the cost of FR glass and framing systems, this can't be cheap even if it is possible. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 433 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:21 pm:    You're right Ken, the assembly would have to be self-closing and self-latching to maintain the wall rating. Now if Won-Dor or McKeon made a translucent fabric.....and if pigs could fly. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1503 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:26 pm:    Skyfold has the translucent material; can we marry them to McKeon? (and pigs can fly - sort of - from the hand of a good quarterback. Seriously, I interpreted "horizontal folding" such that the "fold" would be horizontal. So I looked at Skyfold. But it seems I'm wrong. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1026 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:34 pm:    If it opens and closes, whether automatic or not, it cannot be considered a fire-rated wall assembly--it must be considered an opening. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 181 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 05:12 pm:    You all are funny, thinking I would actually know what it was for and why a 2 hour rating. Next you'll ask about the Drawings. Ha, as if I've seen those. - Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 344 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 05:18 pm:    There just are too many expensive issues to solve with a fire rated operable glass system, and that is being optimistic Would it be possible to put in a totally conventional non-rated operable glass partition system combined with a ceiling mounted fire-rated coiling door or horizontal sliding fire barrier? Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 130 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 05:32 pm:    Drawings!?!?!?!?! You don't need no stinking Drawings! LOL...just hit the magic BIM-Spec button and all will be alright and you can go on vacation!! Ride it like you stole it!!! Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 182 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 05:45 pm:    Steve, What are you thinking, totally conventional? It's a hospital lobby, what's conventional about that? Paul, You are right! I'm going to post that over my desk. "I don't need no stinking Drawings." Then I will hit the automagic email button that says, ''Um, no" and go on vacation this Friday. I'll miss you all. - Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 345 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 06:27 pm:    Lisa, Actually that is just what I was thinking of, a hospital application, because we do a lot of that and this same issue has come up on our hospital occupancy projects in various shapes and forms. By "conventional" for the glass panel system I meant that the designer's goal I encounter is to find a product that visually matches or is very close to the appearance of adjacent (or within sight of) exterior curtain wall or interior aluminum stick systems for the frame profile, finish, and ideally the glass. Sometimes the solution (if these even is one) is very custom, complex, and takes on a life of its own in terms of everyone's time involvement. Even then many types of fire rated glass have less than ideal visual qualities. Add in that for hospital occupancy projects you can often end up spending more time (and design and permit phase fee) in convincing the AHJ that your system complies with code. This is where the wrestling with the greasy pig metaphor can come in. So in some cases a better option may be to select a "conventional non-rated operable glass partition system" that can acceptably meet the design goals (match for frame profile, finish and the visual quality of the glass) and then back that up with a concealed until needed totally conventional, totally separate fire rated overhead coiling door or side sliding accordion fire door that only closes on account of a fire emergency. Your technical architects readily understand the detailing issues, (they may already be in the BIM library), the AHJ sees familiar products that have many existing test results or even pre-approvals and your client sees products available as standard items for competitive bidding instead of one-off custom assemblies. Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 38 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 09:13 am:    How about a 2-hr glass wall, such as by Vetrotech Saint-Gobain, with operable double-doors at each end? Never mind... There's probably also a very high acoustical separation requirement too!... and ballistic resistance? Now, how about a clever use of mirrors??? John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1409 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 11:51 am:    Another approach might be a non-rated glass partition/wall, in conjunction with a coiling or accordion fire door. Ron Leiseca, CSI, CCPR, ICC, BOAF (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2012 - 03:39 pm:    Unfortunately there is no operable sliding door system which would work based on what is available for the US or Canadian markets, and which would carry a UL or ULC listing as a ninety minute or two hour rated system. Fixed with operable swinging doors yes. Costs have come way down on thse so depending on what is needed that may be a possible alternate, but the specifics would be the key. On doors, depending on how flexible you may be, you can get a type with up to an 8090 in a pair. As far as deluge heards, this is now a thing of the past as the 2009/2010 supplement to the 2009 IBC and the 2012 IBC adopted a small clarification under Chapter 7 which states that to test an assembly no secondary protection can be used and all water must be turned off. Passive systems, such as fie rated glazing, must be tested as passive systems so either the assembly has a rating or not by itself. In most cases such as hospitals or other high density occupancies, sprinkler systems are already a requirement so no added credit for using them to "protect" or "enhance" the wall's rating. Makes a lot of sense when you look at it.