| Author |
Message |
MarkSimon (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 05:19 pm: |    |
We've been told that there are possible health / safety issues with Grace Monokote--that it is flammable and styrene gives off a cancer causing gas when burned. Has anyone else had any concerns? |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 411
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 05:49 pm: | |
That's it. I'm changing to intu. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 556
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 06:02 pm: | |
Told by whom? What does the MSDS for Monokote say? |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 06:06 pm: | |
I haven't heard this, though the idea that a fire resistive material that is also flammable makes no sense. Or are you referring to gasses driven off when exposed to heat? If that's the case, there are a LOT of products in a building that may give off cancer-causing gases when burned - possibly every single thing made out of plastic. Probably some naturally-occurring materials, too. If you are in a fire event of that scale, you are evacuating before much or any exposure, or else are probably going to die of smoke inhalation. Fire-fighters wear breathing apparatus to avoid breathing bad s***.
Therefore, I think that, even if true, this is pretty much a non-issue. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 557
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 06:33 pm: | |
The following is from Monokote's product data:
Surface burning characteristics: ASTM E84
Flame spread = 0
Smoke developed = 0
The MSDS simply states the product will not burn.
Sounds to me like someone is "bad-mouthing" a product. It would be nice to know where they are getting their information. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 412
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 07:41 pm: | |
Bad-mouthing the competition in SFRM? Say it isn't so.
I've heard the same tripe. I don't tend to trust people who push this type of foolishness, or specify their products. |
APersonWithKnowledge (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 10:57 am: | |
I will chime in. Not here to bash any specific product since they all have their own weaknesses and strengths.
I believe what this person is trying to say is that styrene, which is a part of the makeup of the Monokote MK-6 product has been classified as a “possible” or “potential” carcinogen. This subject can be argued with any product that contains styrene. Neither side will win this argument. At best, any exposure to this potential carcinogen will only be seen during a fire scenario. Whether or not the amount of exposure is hazardous is likely unknown.
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/styrene.pdf
Note that the E84 test as indicated above does not indicate whether or not a material can “burn”. The largest factor is the ASTM E136 – “Standard Test Method for Behavior of Materials in a Vertical Tube Furnace at 750°C” test, which is an AIA Master Specification requirement and one that I understand the Monokote MK-6 material cannot pass due to the high flammability of the styrene product. Not bashing, just stating the facts here.
Either way, there has been no official confirmation on these issues, so it is largely a non-factor. |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1074
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 11:48 am: | |
Monokote uses polystyrene and not styrene. Polystyrene is not considered a carcinogen and is used in many building products, as well as food packaging. According to Grace's MSDS for Monokote, polystyrene composes only 1 to 10% of the product.
Per the IBC, noncombustible construction materials must pass ASTM E 136 for elementary materials or ASTM E 84 with a flame spread index of not more than 50 for composite materials with a surfacing (like gypsum board). However, the IBC allows combustible materials if approved when as a component or admixture "if the resulting tested assembly meets the fire-resistance test requirements of this code."
Therefore, since the fireproofing has a combustible component but still meets the fire-resistance requirements (i.e ASTM E 119) of the code, then it is generally accepted by building officials.
The polystyrene adds to the insulating characteristic of the fireproofing, plus it makes the product lighter in weight.
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
APersonWithKnowledge (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 03:00 pm: | |
Yes that is true that the product contains polystyrene, however polystyrene is made from styrene. Its concentration however appears to be very low.
Polystyrene is everywhere, containers, cups, toys, etc... We would basically have to live in a bubble to not be exposed to it on an every day basis.
It is essentially as you said, a lightweight filler used in the above-mentioned fire protection product, though obviously not used in high concentration. However, as with any product that is manufactured to be exposed to heat and high temperatures, that does howevever cause some concern, at least in my mind, that is contains some form of potential carcinogen. |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1075
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 05:22 pm: | |
Styrene monomer is the potential carcinogenic element--not polystyrene.
Even though polystyrene is constructed of styrene, the resultant chemical is not the same. It would be like saying cured concrete can cause drowning since drowning occurs in water and water is used to cure concrete.
Residual styrene monomer may be present on manufactured polystyrene; therefore, there could be some impact, but, like you said, the concentration would be negligible. Regardless, to date no organization has classified styrene monomer or polystyrene as carcinogenic, and styrene monomer is only classified as "possibly carcinogenic" by some organizations.
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
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