All-Glass Doors - in Exterior walls

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Author Message Paul Stockert Member Username: pstockert Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 02:05 pm:    Anybody have any suggestions on how to make an all-glass door - i.e. Blumcraft, energy code compliant? Both ICC energy code and ASHRAE 90.1 have mandatory leakage requirements for exterior doors, which can’t be eliminated by trade off methods of analysis. IECC 2009 502.4 Air leakage (Mandatory). 502.4.2 Curtain wall, storefront glazing and commercial entrance doors. Curtain wall, storefront glazing and commercial-glazed swinging entrance doors and revolving doors shall be tested for air leakage at 1.57 pounds per square foot (psf) in accordance with ASTM E 283. For curtain walls and storefront glazing, the maximum air leakage rate shall be 0.3 cubic foot per minute per square foot (cfm/ft2) of fenestration area. For commercial glazed swinging entrance doors and revolving doors, the maximum air leakage rate shall be 1.00 cfm/ft2 of door area when tested in accordance with ASTM E 283. I called CR Laurence and they indicate they have no testing. But you get a beautiful door. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1823 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 05:26 pm:    Here's another manufacturer: 1-800-432-8132 - Trulite Glass & Aluminum Solutions, LLC., 800 Fairway Drive Suite 200, Deerfield Beach, FL 33441. They seem to have no spec or technical info on their website, so you'd have to call. Oldcastle is listed in MasterSpec. You might have better luck with them since they deal with the building envelope and not just pretty stuff. Good luck ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 766 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 03:29 pm:    I've used Ellison Bronze for all-glass openings but that was before Energy Codes kicked in. http://www.ellisonbronze.com/design#tempered-glass Not sure what, if anything, they've done to address this. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 749 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 03:56 pm:    That has to be a difficult thing to achieve. Think about how the seals work in a normal door and frame situation. You either use a bulb-type (or other geometry) seal applied to the frame stop, and the door slab contacts and compresses the seal. Look up National Guard Products 5050. That’s a pretty positive way of sealing, especially if the door is latched and you are not just relying on the closer to hold the door closed. Or you use a seal screwed to the stop – again the seal is compressed when the door closes. (NGP 700, for example). The difficulty you run into with an all glass door is that there is no frame and no stop, and usually no latching. Look at NGP A650 glass door astragals as an example. They are brush seals, and although they are inconspicuous, they are not invisible. Plus, I bet they aren’t tested to ASTM E283 for air leakage according to the catalog – I assume that is because they wouldn’t pass the test. NGP products used for illustration, just because I know their numbers better than the several other comparable companies out there – no endorsement implied. Maybe somebody else makes a comparable to NGP A650 – but I am skeptical that there is an effective solution that meets E283. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1825 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, June 06, 2014 - 04:15 pm:    I've seen clear plastic seals, either with the soft bulb on the edge or the clear astragal type. But maybe they were only on interior all-glass doors. And I'm not finding a reputable dealer through Google. I did see one that stated "Quality window screen Layers cow muscle glass molding aluminum alloy strip seal doors and windows screen door thong" but it's in China. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 740 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 11:35 am:    I think full compliance with the energy code would require some sort of U-value for the door which could not usually be met by a monolithic glass door. I have suggested on a couple of occasions that the door might have to be an insulated glazing unit (not to mention the gaskets). This usually kills the idea pretty quick. Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 251 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2014 - 01:31 pm:    "Cow muscle" and "screen door thong" ?! Gotta be a translation problem. Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 278 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 02:39 pm:    We have had nothing but trouble with using this type of door on the exterior, even using a ridiculously powerful and expensive floor closer. We just are not doing them anymore and if the owner wants to use them we are putting the liability back on them. Also you can google the apple store in Bethesda Maryland for a story about one of these falling off and injuring a pedestrian. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 913 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 03:25 pm:    I have done lots of all glass doors to date they are done with a vestibule that gets heated. I don't know if that gets around energy code requirements or not, but that's what we have done up to now. Currently the designs are being reviewed for projects with energy code restrictions that might impact them. As to failures, well, 37 years of using only Rixson floor closers and having the design team work directly with them have resulted in no failures. I think the largest glass door was a pair of doors that are 9 feet tall, full glass with patch fittings. No problem in 5 years with that, and its an exterior set of 4 leaves in pairs. Another that is a pair that is 8 feet tall is on the roof going outside of a downtown DC office building. Aesthetically, not our design, it was another design architect - but we had to provide the technical solution. Leaks like a sieve when it rains, but that was advised it would happen, but, the doors operate just fine and have done for 4 years now. I use the same closers on glass doors that have metal stiles and rails as well. The design team has to work directly with the closer people, its not just picking hardware. I have seen some of the 1st and 2nd generation Apple stores. And we have one locally that has shattered 2 of its doors mostly due to a failure of the closer to resist wind pulling it out of someone's hand and crashing it into a ground mounted door stop. The closers I have seen on them are all inadequate and I would never consider them. I have not seen one of their new generation stores (those coming on line in the last 12 months. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 657 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2014 - 05:14 pm:    About Apple. Apple stores with an exterior all-glass entrances have Johnson 900 series floor closers with top center pivot. Doors are typically 10-6" high fabricated from two layers of 1/2" HS low-iron glass with 1/16" PVB interlayer or one 3/8" HS layer, one 5/16" HS layer with 1/16" PVB interlayer. HEAVVVY. Stores located in malls have similar sized doors of laminated glass but are bi-parting behind the sidelights. Consider an all-glass revolving door instead of a heated vestibule.