Listing Product Representative Name i...

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1090 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 08:01 am:    I know we have discussed this before, I could not find the thread. A trusted product rep wants me to include his name and contact information in the specifications in lieu of the general manufacturer contact info. He is an independent rep working with many firms. I've never done this. My Rep says its commonplace. Any thoughts from my peers? ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 754 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 08:23 am:    I've only done this a couple of times in the past 30-some years and that was at the specific direction of the client. I'd love to be able to give the edge to some 'Golden Reps' but I'm not comfortable doing so. I've seen lots of interiors specs written this way but that is often because some interior designers actually get a commission of sorts when selecting and specifying products. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 759 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 09:10 am:    Our interiors people like to do that, too. Their argument is that they have worked with the reps to figure out what it is they want, and, for carpet and similar materials that change patterns, the reps have had the factories set aside the material needed for the project in anticipation of getting the job. I have given up the battle, but the logic is specious. The first argument could apply to anything; I may have talked with a hardware rep about locksets, so it seems reasonable for me to steer bidders to that rep. The problem is, such practice may lead to incomplete specifications, on the assumption that the company that gets the job will know what we want. If the specifications are complete, it won't matter who gets the job. From the owner's perspective, the chosen rep may not give the best price, thereby increasing the cost of that product. The second argument has some merit, at least for those finish products that change each year. However, it seems it should be possible to have the manufacturer set aside the material for use by any vendor, which at least makes it possible for two different vendors to bid on the same project. It's still sole-sourcing in my mind, but in this area it appears to be acceptable. For private sector work, the approach used by interiors people can make a project work better. There may be some increase in cost due to sole-sourcing down to the vendor level, but that may be justified by better understanding and fewer problems during construction. Again, the argument could apply to things other than finish materials. For public sector work, which generally requires competitive bidding, it might be better for interior designers to be less specific in color selection. If their design is based on a specific carpet pattern, a specific tile, and a specific wall covering, and the contractor's bid includes products from different manufacturers than the ones specified, they'll have to go through the entire selection process again, anyway, so why spend a lot of time up front when much of the effort will be required again after award of contract? Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 09:52 am:    When I do this, I use words to the effect: "One source [or local source] is..." It's not bulletproof, but lets me sleep better. spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 09:31 am:    We have often provided the names of reps to the bidders not as part of the contract documents but rather as a single sheet listing the reps who are familiar with the project. There is no implied requirement to contact those reps or to use their products but most bidders appreciate knowing who to contact at a specific company to start the bid process. The bidder may go to someone else and they may utilize a different (and equal) product in their bid but having the contact names saves them time and time is money. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 82 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 11:04 am:    Sheldon's comments address the issues very well, as usual. I have had quite a few requests over the years to give a product representative a leg up on a project. Such people don't usually last long in my world. Trying to force a contact into the prospective contract's network or attempting to steer business to an individual in such an overt manner makes one look naïve or inordinately influenced, neither of which are good. If product representatives have truly gone out of their way to assist with a project, I make sure they know who the prime bidders are, if substitutions are being proposed, and if any addenda pertinent to their interests are being issued. Of course, this is not privileged information - it is available to anyone for the asking. That's all I can do for them, but I am pleased on the occasions when things go their way. I inform them of this policy before they expend the extra effort so there are no misunderstandings. Ironically, it is often the case that the more a product representative knows about a project, the less likely he is to get the work. It's as though he is setting the pace so latecomers can pass him in the home stretch! Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 652 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 12:45 pm:    We work 99% fpr private clients. Interiors drive the requirement for including product reps names/phone numbers, etc in the interior materials finish legends located in the drawings. To list or not to list has been debated ad nauseum. Interior has advised Seattle office has several go-to reps that insist on being named even of the project is out of state. Anecdotal evidence says those reps who do all the initial leg work threaten to stop providing samples if they are not named. At the very least, they want their counterparts in other parts of the country to be advised that Seattle reps were the first contact. Something about I scratch your back, you scratch mine. I have stopped including manufacturer's city/state location and phone numbers. I now use only URL addresses. Interior finish material legend may still include the Seattle rep. It is not a fight worth fighting. Wayne Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 244 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 01:00 pm:    Sometimes I get this request from Owners who have national accounts programs, like retail and supermarket chains. Even then, I'd prefer to reference a separate document because people and contact information change frequently. - Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 648 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 12:56 pm:    I'm with Ken on this one and probably have only done this a couple of times myself, but only because of special circumstances where the local rep. had special knowledge of a complicated issue. Otherwise, I refrain from putting local rep contacts in my specifications which tended to upset the rep., my interiors people (I'm highly suspect here), and even some Project Managers, but I prevailed. I make it a standard policy of not including local contact info for reps, thus even my favorite (CSI) reps.understand. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 187 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 01:46 pm:    Richard, I always agree with Ken. It makes life easier. LOL! Something about Wayne's post reminded me of another discussion going on here at 4Specs. The Pay to Play discussion. The "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" comment leads me there. Some reps and designers act as procurement companies, too. They make money coordinating the procurement of interior goods. I recently ran into an interior designer that charged design fees (and they were not cheap) and then also made profit on the goods that she procured for the client. They would design the interior with the suppliers she sourced knowing that they would make money both ways. Maybe this is a good case to say that for the architect to list the rep they pay the architect a fee... If the rep is basically threatening to withhold samples unless they get listed, I would personally suggest that the interior designers to select something else. That is like holding the architect hostage. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 653 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 02:25 pm:    Alan, You are correct in the description in your 3rd paragraph. Interior designers, to my knowledge, don't carry liablility insurance. No one sues over bad taste. Regarding holding the architect hostage, the products in question are usually number 1 in the hearts and minds of the decorator. I agree, find an alternate. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 755 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 03:46 pm:    I am happy to tell the successful bidder, AKA GC, who reps the products I've specified if they ask me. I've also made it clear to reps that providing a lunch-and-learn, samples, or even the occasional beverage after hours is no guarantee that their products will be listed. I'm good friends with a few reps whose products I won't use (they know who they are). I trust them but have had less then stellar experience with certain products so they're out. Period. A few people on this forum know what I'm talking about. Specs are all about communication. If a bidder submits an RFI during the bidding period because they can't find a product (how I wish I'd get more of those RFIs), I'll cough up a contact in a heartbeat. For some reason that rarely happens. If I'm working a public project, I always try to remember to provide the project website to reps when I contact them for information. After all, it's public knowledge and I want them to be able to track the project. That's about as far as I'll go though. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 729 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 03:54 pm:    I am going to "ditto" just about everything already said. The only time I have named a rep has been on a project where the Owner has a national account (usually at the Owner's insistence). I usually don't give contact information at all, just manufacturers and (when appropriate) product trade names. Contractors are paid to actually buy the project in accordance with the Contract Documents; they have their own sources for this. I have found in our market that there are several roofers with enough volume that they purchase directly from the manufacturer, bypassing the local distributor (and rep). I wonder if there are any "interior products" that may fall into this category. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C, MAI Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 259 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 09:13 am:    There are a few specifiers who make it a regular practice to try and include contact info for as many of their local reps as possible in their specs. The idea is reduced administrative costs for the bidders, and facilitating communication for the overall project team, especially to include "golden reps" who know nuances of the project, therefore more value to the Owner in the long run. The clinchers I think are that it would have to be done broadly enough to be clear it is not favoritism, and would have to be maintained as people come & go. It is more work. If it is a benefit ultimately to the Owners of projects, wouldn't that be worthwhile and come full circle over time? On a hard deadline or 3 is not the time to implement it though. A dedicated effort in developing one's masters to allow for this would be the way. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C, MAI Senior Member Username: chris_grimm_ccs_scip Post Number: 260 Registered: 02-2014 Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 09:19 am:    Responding to some of the other insightful comments above: I like Tony's suggestion of "One source [or local source] is..." Also it would seem to me that any reps who threaten to not offer samples are going to exclude themselves from work. There is an established submittal process after all! To Jerry's original query, I wholeheartedly agree it is pushy and risky for a rep to assert this position. I just wanted to add to the discussion that yes it may be the practice of some specifiers, and even that it may be done correctly without any hidden agenda. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 769 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 09:34 am:    The problem with knowing the nuances of the project is that the rep who knows them may lose the bid to someone less knowledgeable. I once had the unpleasant experience of watching a rep being thoroughly reamed by an architect for not including what he knew in his bid. His - valid - excuse was, he bid what was in the documents, which did not include several things that had been discussed with the architect. Had he included those things, his bid would have been higher, and a competitor, who did not know of those unspecified items, would have won the bid. spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 11:06 am:    Sheldon bringing up a good example of why a good local rep can be beneficial to the design team. If the rep is part of the process from design thru bidding (and beyond) they can point out areas where the documents do not spell out everything the rep knows the architect wants. Hopefully they do this prior to the bid date rather than after as part of a change order. An addendum can be acknowledgement of a mistake or omission but it is better than a change order. Of course this does not necessarily mean that the rep needs to be included in the spec but they do have the potential to help the project and the Owner if they are engaged in the process as much as possible.