Construction Documents and Plan Reviews

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Author Message Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1206 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 10:41 pm:    In addition to this fine discussion forum, I also participate in a code-related forum. Well, just recently, someone started a thread on construction documents and whether or not should building officials or plans examiners have any say where things are placed. The discussion quickly focused on specifications. I added my "2 cents' worth," but I thought you guys might be interested in it, too--if not to post, at least for grins and giggles. Here's the link: http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/commercial-building-codes/14012-construction-documents.html Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 707 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2014 - 09:00 am:    Thanks for this link, Ron. Most of the projects I prepare specs for are in jurisdictions that don't accept specs for review. The main reason that I hear is that they digitize the documents and it is too expensive to digitize the project manual. Based on my indirect interaction with the people that do the review, I would say that they know little or nothing about how construction docs are supposed to be organized and why. They are focused on how they can most easily get the information they need for their review. I have seen instances where a reviewer's demands reduces the usefulness of the documents for pricing and construction as well as increase the possibility of errors and omissions. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 442 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:20 pm:    I have also heard them say "it is too expensive to digitize the project manual". But they have no response when we offer a digital copy in PDF format. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 171 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:42 pm:    What was explained to me was that they had to microfiche the files and that was expensive. I am also of the belief that they are under time pressure to get the reviews done that they do not have the time to go looking through another manual for the information. It is better if they have a set of drawings that had certain information that they required clearly where they need it. What I have done in the past is to create a door hardware schedule on the drawings that gave them the basic information that they are looking for and then the spec followed up with the technical information. Is it duplication? Yes. Does it solve the issue of no spec submitted? Yes. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 745 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:45 pm:    The obvious answer is to put all of the drawings and all of the specifications on a single sheet. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 732 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:54 pm:    Since drawings seem to be getting smaller anyway, why not just put them on 8-1/2 x 11 sheets and bind them into the Project Manual? Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 12:56 pm:    That's a concept... Maybe do drawings the way they were done when they were respected 100+ years ago. Oh wait, then the contractor couldn't hire college kids that don't know anything about construction or sub-contractors that got things done right without trying to screw the client. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 174 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 01:05 pm:    Ha, ha, ha! Ken, smaller? I am having the exact opposite problem. Larger plans to where they match line a simple box and then don't put any information on the drawing. And I mean none. No dimensions, anything. I have seen details without a single note or dimension. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 651 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 01:38 pm:    The project specifications are consistent with the definition of construction documents located in the IBC. A Project manual is consistent with standard practice. The Building department has a legal obligation to retain copies of the construction documents. Thus I do not see how the building department can use the argument regarding the cost of making copies. If this is a real burden they have the ability to adjust their fee structure but I suggest that when faced with having to do this they will find the additional costs to be nominal. Could it be that the building department is acting illegally when they refuse to consider specifications as a part of the construction documents? Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 443 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 01:51 pm:    Smaller Plans? We once received a rather thick folded drawing from a manufacturer that resembled the packaging for a king size sheet set purchased at a department store. When opened and unfolded, this turned out to be a full scale plan drawing for a nuclear medicine procedure room. The idea being that the contractor merely unfolded this and every slab penetration and expansion bolt location was there in full size. This was back in the day where almost everything came and went by FAX. Using this plan submittal as inspiration, we wondered if you could draw a full size wall section, feed it into the fax and send it to the Contractor, All they would need to do would be to lay out the continually unspooling FAX at the project site. Notations would be provided like: "turn right 90 degrees" or "3'-0" door here". George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 727 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 01:59 pm:    Using "I've never seen a workman carrying a spec book" as justification for putting specification information on the drawings is specious at best. In this context, at least, the worker really doesn't matter. What's important is that the specifications and drawings are binding on the contractor. After all, it’s not the individual worker who will be held responsible if the work fails to comply with code. How the contractor chooses to assure that an individual worker performs the work, and whether he or she is carrying the drawings, the specs, or Gideon’s Bible, should be of no concern to the a/e, or the code official. The fact that the project manual is often used to prop open the jobsite trailer door doesn’t minimize its importance, its relevance, or its contractual authority. Likewise, it’s silly to dismiss specifications just because some a/e’s produce lousy and worthless written documents when they don’t follow the principles of good practice. Putting it all on the drawings – as you all are pointing out – isn’t the answer. It’ll be interesting to hear how many code officials attend Ron’s seminars in Indy. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Allegion PLC (formerly Ingersoll Rand) St. Louis, MO ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 733 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 03:29 pm:    Perhaps one day Code officials will reject applications because the specs are wrong. Maybe if more officials did their jobs right and required accurate specs that actually pertain to the project, Owners and Designers would start appreciating the importance of specs. Okay, break over. Back to reality. Brian Payne, AIA Senior Member Username: brian_payne Post Number: 25 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 04:14 pm:    I had a project manager come to me to pass on a comment from the contractor. He said our drawings made it impossible to build the building without looking at the specifications. I said "Thank you." That might of been the biggest professional compliment I had received in a while. I purposely have designed our keynotes to be as general as possible where appropriate. Need to know the thickness of the roof membrane? Don't go looking at the drawings, it's in the spec (unless of course there are two different thicknesses, then I'll distinguish.) John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 692 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Monday, March 17, 2014 - 04:49 pm:    Perhaps we should form an organization that would present these issues and prospective solutions on our behalf to the International Code Council (ICC). Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 - 03:46 pm:    It strikes me as odd that lawyers can read specs but can't read drawings, and that plan examiners can read drawings but can't read specs, but both depend on each other for full understanding of contract requirements.