Including Catalog Cuts in the Project...

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1035 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:21 pm:    One of my clients has asked that I include Catalog Cuts of Door Hardware selected by the Project's DHC. I've never done this and need an educated response from one of my peers. Additionally the DHC has failed to include an actual Door Hardware spec section, just the Schedule, I've already advised the Architect that a spec section is required. I had thought this had been discussed previously on this forum, but a search failed to find it. Thanks in advance for your help. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 706 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:46 pm:    Speaking for Allegion, it's pretty easy for our software to generate catalog cuts once we have produced the Door Hardware Schedule. I am betting that my esteemed competitor collegues (who shall remain nameless - you KNOW who they are) can do the same thing. It's a request we get fairly often, and it is a good way for the client (owner or architect in this case?) to get an understanding of what is being specified. I haven't seen much call for binding into the project manual, but there is probably no reason why you couldn't as long as the catalog cuts are fairly specific and not overly generic. There was a discussion of this technique in the PRM and I think it carried over to the practice guides. (also on this forum - I remember that as well) And yes, a spec section (thank you for not using the dreaded term "preamble") is required. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Allegion PLC (formerly Ingersoll Rand) St. Louis, MO Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 554 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:54 pm:    My thoughts: As a young, naive architect endeavoring to survive the painful ordeal known as a door hardware submittal, I often lamented my misfortunes and wondered yet again what I had done wrong in a past life to deserve such a fate. Why! Why! Why is it so! I would call out in despair. Why can't they provide a cut sheet of specified item as well as the substitution? How am I know to know if the undeciferable codes in my spec bore any resemblance to what they submitted? Oh how I wish for a cutsheet of the spec'd item for which I can compare... So yeah, please include cut sheets. You might just save a life, or at least the sanity of a young architect looking down the barrels of another submittal. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1036 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 10:56 pm:    George, you are on the money, an Allegion DHC provided the Catalog Cuts and Schedules in question. I don't include Catalog Cuts because they are not specifications, they do not follow the CSI 3 part format which is a requirement of all the Project Manuals I coordinate. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1037 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:06 pm:    Nathan, I feel your pain, this is one of the reasons why I exclude preparation of Door Hardware specifications from my scope of work, its almost as bad as elevator specs, which I also exclude. I've never known an architect to sign and seal contract documents that included catalog cuts, perhaps we need legal council. Where oh where is Robin the 4specs forum's legal stalker. Perhaps she can enlighten us. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1038 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:12 pm:    Robin, my apologies for calling you a stalker, Ive been working for the past 16 hours on specs, I am at a loss for words and a bit punchy. I would like to say I'll be going to bed soon, but that too is doubtful. Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1178 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:19 pm:    Jerome: GO TO BED...NOW! Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 707 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:30 pm:    I misspoke a bit when implying that including catalog cuts in the project manual was consistent with CSI recommendations. What the PRM and practice manual advocate is including illustrations -specifically photographs - of items next to the written description. Toilet accessories are used as the example, but door hardware would be another. Simply taking catalog cuts as we supply them and including them would not be good practice, because usually catalog cuts include undifferentiated options. You are right, they are not specifications. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Allegion PLC (formerly Ingersoll Rand) St. Louis, MO Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1039 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:39 pm:    Ron, once again you are on the money, sleep would be a good thing, I'm considering it, how about indulging me with your wisdom about catalog cuts as specifications first? Fortunately lack of an answer won't keep me from my zzz's, when my head hits the pillow, I'm out until the alarm sounds....but it would be one less problem to deal with in the A.M. BTW, I'm not totally insane, I take power naps all the time, but I don't consider those actual sleep, just energizers, now where are my bunny slippers at? Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1179 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 11:59 pm:    Although not particularly kosher in the specifications world, I've heard of specifiers adding appendices to their specifications. I don't know the legal ramifications of including an appendix, but you could add a paragraph in your summary section (01 10 00) that indicates that the appendix is provided as additional information for the contractor and is not considered a contract document (or you could make it a contract document, but just not call it a specification since the information is in an appendix). Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 555 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 12:28 am:    Now that I have more influence over my pain and suffering (I get to pick my consultants, and my CD's are my work results, not just something I've been thrust into), I always insist on having appendices for door hardware, light fixtures, kitchen equipment, owner furnished equip, etc... It is of incredible value to the entire team and throughout the duration of the project. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 894 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 12:35 am:    The only 2 categories of consultants that I have had to deal with that wanted catalog cuts included are Food Prep consultants and Architectural Lighting consultants. Not all of them, just a few of them over the years. And though I have not experienced it, I know of other specifiers that have had interior designers providing cut sheets of furniture sent to them when loose furniture is included in the contractor's scope of work (rare, but it happens). Those that have requested this have also provided specifications including schedules that for the most part make the cut sheets redundant. But, some of the cut sheets (in particular the Architectural Lighting) would show modifications on the cut sheets (markups or annotations of the drawings that would show installation). Regardless, I have always put these into an appendix, and any appendix is always bound as a separate volume (or if pdf, it is a separate volume package). In my project manual table of contents, at the end I list the title of a particular appendix (Architectural Lighting, Food Service, etc.). The project manual TOC itself does not list the contents of the appendix, just the name of the appendix volume, the appendix has its own separate TOC. I include no written documentation in the appendix other than its TOC, but the TOC itself states that the information included is intended as supplementary information to the drawings and specifications and are not contract documents in and of themselves. I have always notified the consultants of this well in advance (like at 75% review when we often publish a draft) and none have ever had a problem with it. I don't think there is any problem with any consultant providing cut sheets, even marked up, to the Architect for the Architect's information. That can be very valuable if the consultant is not on board to perform submittal review which I have seen happen. But they are not contract documents, or should not be permitted to be since as George notes above, many/most contain undifferentiated options, or if showing custom modifications are not the best way to show them...and they are not specifications. Interestingly, where I have seen lots of cut sheets being put off as contract documents is when a consultant (my experience being with the same categories of consultants I note above) is where they lay them out on drawing sheets and submit them as drawings. I advise our PM's/PA's against permitting this, but, technically its not my call and the particular consultants that do this often prevail upon the owner (whom they often work for directly) that this is their standard practice and never causes a problem with the contractor. I can't agree, but, mileage may vary. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX spiper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 09:58 am:    Some of the database spec programs will allow you to include links to web pages which allows for electronic catalog cuts that are accessible to the bidders without actually being in the spec. Our spec of course states that the links are for reference only and the content is not guaranteed which hopefully protects us if a manufacturer changes their cuts. We also make sure our spec still has all of the correct information in it (we don't use the link to describe the product). This has seemed to answer a lot of GC questions when they are trying to figure out what we are looking for. Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: presbspec Post Number: 241 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 10:12 am:    I had a similar situation on a recent project where loose furnishings and artwork were included in the construction contract. It was a publicly funded project so proprietary method was out. I set up a section to deal with the admin of handling the submittals and installation then created a Furnishings Manual attached by appendix to the project. I had to modify some of the information the Interior Design team included in their furnishings cuts and had to include a disclaimer stating that items indicated were provided for style, quality and color selection, and did not limit the purchasing of other manufacturers. Not the cleanest solution, but I believe will do the job. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 497 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 12:16 pm:    Jerome - that's ok, I have been called worse. I can't give legal advice here, but, for discussion sake, I don't see what the problem is and although they may not meet the CSI 3-part, neatly packaged definition of "contract documents (CD)", they can, very easily, be part of the contract just as much as a hardware schedule. Why is the written description of the door lever considered a CD, but a picture of a cutsheet isn't, but if the architect draws said lever on their drawings, now it is part of the CD's? Why is an Architect ok sealing something that says, "basis of design: xxxx" but not an actual cutsheet of "xxxx". Heck, a couple of words or a sketch on a cocktail napkin can be a contract if both parties agree. The idea is to communicate the Architect and Owner's intent to the contractor. The more effectively we can do that, it's a win-win for everyone. As technology changes, we are all going to have to rethink the format of the information we provide to the contractor to communicate our intent. (Disclaimer: Just my opinion, not legal advice!!) Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 12:28 pm:    Exactly, Robin. Will the cut sheet work totally by itself? No, it requires additional information. Call the cut sheets supplemental information. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 320 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 01:39 pm:    Jerome, I hope you got some good rest by now. A key reason why cut sheets are frequently not conducive for inclusion as CDs, as William mentioned -- they often contain multiple options. Also they contain superfluous information. If those options are completely marked, good. Still this idea would add difficulty to the task of "say it once" because much of the options are also in your spec. Now do you delete them? Maybe you decide it is less laborious to keep them and just make sure you get them all in sync now. But when things change? And what about all the irrelevant facts about product x, which may be fine but not SALIENT attributes for this project? Do you develop a notation like and asterisk for what is a salient attribute? If so, is everything not asterisked unimportant? Because of all this, offering the product data even as an Appendix/Attachment/Exhibit/whatever could possibly lead to product options that were not chosen, being construed to be acceptable. Also it could lead to the perception of disqualifying otherwise capable competing manufacturers. If the client still requires this, a well-worded paragraph in the front end could be written, and petition for a separately bound volume. But I've even had to attach them to sections before at client's demand after advising of these consideration. There were no problems -- however, I credit that to the well-worded front end paragraph and extra communication with that Design/Build Contractor and they got their subs on board with reviewing the cuts - it was not just door hardware but virtually everything. If you have any say about where it goes, consider the a 1-page section under 003000 Available Information that says they are not Contract Documents, and cross references to a separate volume, makes it pretty clear. Another approach for managing the design-phase product data is the project team, including consultants, collaboratively develops an electronic library of cut sheets for the project, never publishing with the specifications. Need to determine sharing of this information - Who/When/What. I find that when teams follow this approach, a lot of time is saved by not recreating something during bidding and CA that they already knew from drawing the families and details. If shared with the contracting team, the A/E could send it to the Owner first, with a disclaimer, and ask the Owner to review and pass it along. They may just say you are being uncooperative though, in non-specific words. anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 04:50 pm:    I agree with Mr. Grimm. I can tell you from experience that including product data sheets in the Project Manual can lead to very costly change orders, as we recently dealt with on a very, very large publicly bid project. One of our consultants, let's just say he/she wasn't particularly "illuminated," insisted on including a large packet of product data sheets - unmarked and right out of the manufacturer's binders, over my objections. Contractor bid stuff he picked from the data sheets, even though specification section said something different... I'm sure all of you know the rest of the story. The sad thing is that this consultant has not modified his/her position/approach on this. Sigh. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 427 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 01:07 am:    This is a very valuable conversation about the positives and negatives of allowing product data sheets in to the sealed contract drawings. Like others, in my personal experience on real projects, food service consultants and lighting designers (illuminated or otherwise) are the project team members who want to do this. I have fortunately never experienced a problem on a project where we did issue cut sheets (as an appendix), so I guess all the boxes were properly checked, but I can easily see the problems if they had not been. I will certainly use this conversation as a meeting subject the next time someone wants their own appendix of cut sheets. I have resisted doing this for an extremely basic reason: If you do it for one or another specialty, then you hazard and deserve an RFI asking you to do it for everything. That being said, I can remember a time long ago, before the first Gulf War, when I was a young architect doing house projects on the side while working at a large firm. Elder Pre-Computer Moment Coming - I did something similar on my house projects, where I would photocopy the layout drawings for plumbing and electrical fixtures from product data sheets onto "sticky back" plastic sheets and stick them on my hand drawn drawings. My concern was usually entirely to match the dimensional layout (sometimes I would cut off the actual manufacturer's name), and crucially the sizes of the concealed from view portions of various pieces of equipment. Light fixture manufacturers in particular could make a recessed light fixture where many or several manufacturers could perfectly match the lighting performance, visually match the exposed trims and all, but in the concealed portion could be entirely different. Some stacked everything vertically, so you needed a lot of clear height in the ceiling. Others had all of the "guts" sticking out to the side, so you needed a lot of horizontal clearance. My assumption is that some of the need/desire to include cut sheets might derive from an lack of confidence in being able to write into the specs a need to match secondary qualities like "will it fit into the space" for stuff that is rated by performance stats. Wanting to include cut sheets might be their own private "lesson learned". Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 1040 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 07:05 am:    Stop that Steve, you are bringing back too many old memories, god how I loved stikybaks....still have a box in the office, surprisingly they still stick, hard to just toss them out...of course I still have my drawing board and T-square too, relics of a better time perhaps. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 665 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 10:06 am:    I have included cut sheets for preliminary documents (like at the SD or DD stage) where the building is largely a duplicate of other projects (like big box chains) that the firm has worked on in the immediate past. It "telegraphs" to the contractor we are working with exactly what we are doing. Usually the site adaptation is largely related to drawing issues although not always. I have done these for other projects with kitchen equipment and furnishings as well as complex manufacturering equipment. These were sometimes for OF/OI items so that the contractor knew what to expect. This relates to my mantra of "product selection is not product specification" (one of many), but this is usually met with blank looks that make deer in headlights look like rocket scientists. Michael Heinsdorf, P.E. Senior Member Username: michael_heinsdorf_pe Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 10:06 am:    It can depend on the project delivery method and who is including the cut sheets. As an engineer, we would typically not issue cut sheets for a design-bid-build - of course, we also didn't have the same aesthetic issues. Those times when we did, for instance when buying luminaires or a generator, it appeared to become an open door for contractors to challenge product selection, and a lot of back and forth involving the contracting officer(s), who was not an engineer or architect, had not been involved in the design, and wanted make sure we had covered our bases because including the cut sheets was not typical practice. After that, and this situation is not typical, for that particular client, when a certain product was desired to match existing or for compatibility, we would put together a purchasing contract. There are certain issues associated with doing so, but the benefits outweighed the risks, and we were typically able to get a better price. For other clients, use of cut sheets was avoided, but we would specify model numbers. It's pretty common to use cut sheets on design-build projects for some major components (luminaires, generators, etc) through almost the entire design. However, we would not issue them as part of the engineering documents because of liability issues. I was never able to get a good answer as to whether or not a PE signing cut sheets meant that he/she assumed liability for the products on the sheets. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 631 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 01:02 pm:    Cut sheets can deal with issues that are outside an engineer's scope of work and that deal with contractors means and methods and thus should never be signed by the engineer. This has serious liability implications. This are the same reasons why architects and engineers should not sign shop drawings. There may be instances where it may be appropriate for engineers working for the contractor to sign shop drawings. Similarly engineers and I would assume architects do not want to even see material data sheets. You may use a cut sheet to help you determine if the product complies with the requirements you specified but such review is limited. If you had specified a particular product a cut sheet might help you verify that what they are submitting is the product you specified. Michael Heinsdorf, P.E. Senior Member Username: michael_heinsdorf_pe Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2014 Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 04:53 pm:    Mark, thanks for the advice. I realized I was not clear - two cut sheets were issued as part of the project one time (they were for a proprietary product the client already owned), and that was the last time.