A SectionFormat question

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Author Message Ann G. Baker, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Intermediate Member Username: ann Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2013 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 07:37 pm:    My guess is that this has been discussed somewhere but for the life of me I can't find it. I've received a request to add Part 4 - Measurement and Part 5 - Payment to all (yes, all) of my spec sections. Supposedly this is coming from the city/client. There's not much I can do to control it but I have tried to explain to my client, the architect, that this isn't a good idea. In addition, there are simply not enough hours in the days between now and the deadline for the final CD's (oh, yeah, those are due in less than four weeks and this is just now coming up??)for me to accomplish this so the architect is having me send all of my files so that they can have someone at their place add. Although I doubt they'll change any of the specs beyond this addition, I still am very nervous about simply handing over the Word documents. The question really is simply, how do you handle Parts 4 and 5? Have you come up with a convincing argument against using them? Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP, EDAC Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 417 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 08:01 pm:    Do they expect each of these Measurement and Payment Parts to be individually tailored to the requirements of each Section? If not, simply add: Part 4 - Measurement A. Refer to Section 01 XX XX Part 5 - Payment: A. Refer to Section 01 XX XX END OF SECTION If you are really pressed for time, have a rubber stamp of the above made, gift wrap it and sent it with the specs. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 646 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, November 18, 2013 - 10:50 pm:    I'm up to my eyeballs in such a project right now. At the risk of offending people, I'll keep my opinions to myself. Ann, if you'd care to have a sidebar about how I'm dealing with mine (PART 4 MEASUREMENT AND PAYMENT), I'd be happy to talk with you. Please drop me a line at Kenneth.hercenberg@stvinc.com. Huge deadlines coming up so correspondence might be erratic, but it should help. Good luck! J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 643 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 07:43 am:    Ann - First, welcome to the wonderful world of the independent specifier where clients insist on use of the "CSI format" and then proceed to tell you how not to follow it. Second, my recollection is that this is addressespd in SectionFormat (not at the office yet so can't tell you exactly where. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 885 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 09:52 am:    Of course, if you are an argumentative mode, you could also point out to them that in the current CSI Section Format, Measurement and Payment are not separate parts (Neither part 4 or part 4 and 5). They are correctly listed in Part 1 where they are supposed to go. If you don't have a copy of the latest Section Format, that would be article 1.2. Here is a paste in of what would be article 1.2. The actual Section Format document just lists the topics and does use article and paragraph numbering: PRICE AND PAYMENT PROCEDURES Allowances Unit Prices Alternates [OR] Alternatives Measurement and Payment William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Scott Mize Senior Member Username: scott_mize_ccs_csi Post Number: 86 Registered: 02-2009 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 09:57 am:    Bill beat me to it. Good luck, Ann. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 693 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 10:24 am:    So, what's going in Part 4 and Part 5? I can imagine it being different for each section: Measure and pay for the paint by the square foot of surface area to which it is applied. If so, that seems like a sentence in Part 1. (William, above) I can imagine it being the same in each section: "The process for payment is..." If so, that's a section in Division 01, isn't it? "01 22 13 Unit Price Measurement" and "01 22 16 Unit Price Payment" in MF12. Or it is an article or two in 01 22 00 Unit Prices. (Steven, above) Another question: Does "Measurement and Payment" imply "Unit Prices", or is there another situation where you would use it? George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 617 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 10:40 am:    With all due respect with tongue in cheek (at least some respect) aren't Parts 4, 5, 6, to ifiniti reserved for the more creative MEP consultants that cannot resist messing with a good thing. LOL William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 886 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 10:44 am:    What is in Part 4/5? As regards the format for SectionFormat, nothing. These Parts are not used. Its all in Part 1, 1.2 The SectionFormat document also comes with a nice discussion breakout for all of the paragraph headings. Here is what it states about the article and each of the subparagraphs to PRICE AND PAYMENT PROCEDURES (I paste in all of them as they interlink at times): PRICE AND PAYMENT PROCEDURES: This Article is provided to align with section titles included in MasterFormat. When more than one of the subordinate Article titles is required, use this Article to categorize procedural requirements for price and payment procedures as related to the specific section. When only one of the subordinate titles is required, this Article may be omitted and the subordinate titles used as a primary Article. Allowances: List products and work included in the section that is covered by quantity allowances or cash amounts. State the actual quantity or cash amounts in Division 01. Descriptions of products and execution may be included in the appropriate Articles of Part 2 and Part 3, and should provide information affecting the cost of the work not included under the allowance, e.g., generic types or sizes affecting installation. Coordination: Section 01 21 00 - Allowances. Unit Prices: Include statements about the products and work covered by "Unit Prices" and the method-to be used to measure the quantities. State estimated quantities in Division 01. Complete technical information for products and execution should be included in appropriate Articles of Part 2 and Part 3. Coordination: Section 01 22 00 - Unit Prices. Alternates [or] Alternatives: List products or work of the section that are to be included as an alternate/alternative or portion of an alternate/alternative. Do not attempt to describe the effect of project alternates/alternatives involving complex circumstances or physical configurations (such as a new building addition) on the work of each section. Complete technical information about alternate/alternative materials or methods should be included in appropriate Articles of Part 2 and Part 3. Alternates/alternatives: Use, application, and meaning of these terms varies regionally and between the various Standard Contracts. The specifier must determine the appropriate definitions of these terms and coordinate their use in the Project Manual. If the terms are not fully defined in the Standard Contracts, include definitions in "Supplementary Conditions." Coordination: Section 01 23 00 - Alternates [Alternatives]. Measurement and Payment: List special measurement and payment procedures for the work results specified, including those for Owner-furnished/Owner-supplied products or those furnished/supplied by related contracts. Describe methods to be used for measurement of quantities. Projects utilizing Unit Prices should use this Article rather than create a non-standard Part. Long or complex lists of Unit Prices may be appended as Attachments. Complete technical information for products and types of work should be specified in Part 2 and Part 3. Coordination: Section 01 20 00 - Price and Payment Procedures. The SectionFormat document is quite good, it was put together by a Task Team headed by David Lorenzini and published in 2008. It is available as a separate document. It along with PageFormat is a single combined document, runs to 60 pages, I have it as a pdf file. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 10:56 am:    Regarding tongue in cheek - not nice, no one knows what the bulge in the cheek is really about. Falls under hidden/discovered conditions. Best to just stick it out, everyone knows what that means -grin! William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 694 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 11:38 am:    Also, SectionFormat and PageFormat are available with a purchase of any of CSI's Practice Guides. Look for the secret code at the back of the manual for the online link and p/w. (I think this is still true - it's been a while since I bought my copies.) Lots of other good CSI documents can be downloaded, too. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 648 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 12:03 pm:    Sadly it is still the norm when dealing with State DOT groups all over the country for horizontal construction and Unit Price Contracts as opposed to lump sum with some unit prices. They are used to having Part 4 or Part 4 and 5 (as opposed to the correct location in Part 1). Perhaps they believe that the Bidders will get upset if they change too much too soon. If this is a public civil engineering project, roadway or transit, the fact that the specs are being generated in some semblance of "CSI Format" is a huge step forward. I take my victories where I can find them. David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 42 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 12:24 pm:    Ken: The despair.com website has a poster that reads: "Consulting: If you can't be part of the solution, there's plenty of money to be made prolonging the problem." Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 01:04 pm:    It is about time CSI got with the times. It is obvious what all those other "parts" should be: Part 4 - Miscellaneous stuff. Part 5 - Other stuff. Part 6 - Random stuff. Part 7 - Stuff. Part 8 - Last minute stuff. Part 9 - Stuff by others. Part 10- Stuff that belongs in another section. Part 11- Stuff that belongs on the Drawings. Part 12- Repeated stuff already addressed in this section. Part 13- Repeat of Part 12. Part 14- Restating of stuff already addressed. Part 15- Stuff that needs to be emphasized. Part 16- Repeated contract requirement stuff. Part 17- Stuff that hasn't been figured out yet. Part 18- Made up stuff. Part 19- Forgotten stuff. Part 20- To be determined stuff. Part 21- H.R Puff-n stuff. Part 22- Undeleted stuff from another project. Part 23- Unnecessary stuff. Part 24- Mysterious stuff. Part 25- Unforeseen stuff. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 645 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 02:21 pm:    I though these were part of Division 17.... Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1725 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 02:25 pm:    Not since the new MasterFormat; now they're in Division 20, according to one of my consultants, anyway. And of course, this gives us the opportunity to tell them all to just "stuff it"... Ronald L. Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1164 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 05:53 pm:    From what Ann has provided, I assume that the city client is a public works department that manage primarily civil-engineering-based projects. All of the county and state DOT standard specifications I have seen used by public works departments include separate measurement and payment portions. These generally relate to unit price contracts where the quantities have to be tracked and payment may vary depending on the material. Much of the content in these two areas are identical, which violates CSI's principle of "Say it once and in the right place." I would ask for what purpose would those "Parts" serve on a project? Is each work result on the project (assuming this is a building) to be individually measured and payment will be based on actual installed quantities? With the exception of a possible few unit prices, a building project is a stipulated sum contract, and it doesn't matter how much was installed and what the actual payment per unit installed will be--the price is the price. Ron Geren, FCSI, AIA, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Ann G. Baker, RA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP, LEED AP BD+C Advanced Member Username: ann Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2013 Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - 07:28 pm:    Thanks all for weighing in on this. Ron, I think you hit the nail on the head here - it's a public works department that understands horizontal construction the way they've always done it. We did dodge a bit of a bullet when they (the public works guys)backed off the requirement to go back to 16 divisions. In the case of this project, it's turned out to be out of my hands completely, with the architect for the vertical portion of the project (the ones I'm working for) not in any position to argue the point, no matter how logical it is. I suspect that in many, many cases Part 4 and Part 5 will say that they do not apply to the work of the section (and then, what's the point, really? Preaching to the choir, I know). By the way, for the vertical construction portion of this project we have no unit prices either. I've had the request for 4 and 5 on projects in the past but have always been able to convince the owner that measurement and payment are covered adequately elsewhere. This time I haven't been so lucky. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 651 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 - 09:57 am:    Keep fighting the good fight Ann! It's funny, my transit and utility engineers are completely on-board with using "CSI Formats" out of the box, Master, Section, & Page. It's just those pesky so-called Civil Engineers that don't seem to get it. The part that really gets me is that they're using the Bidders as their excuse. Apparently Contractors tasked with performing multi-million dollar infrastructure projects are not sufficiently intelligent to understand an industry standard formatting system. Sorry, been a long day (and it's not even 10 AM).