Knox Box

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Author Message George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 670 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:36 pm:    I know there are other threads on this topic, but I thought I would get an update on the pulse of the specification community: Knox boxes - in 087100, in a separate section, or in a miscellaneous equipment section? What's your preference, current practice, experience? Thanks, George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO David J. Wyatt, CDT Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:46 pm:    George, I had to look myself, because I have been seeing them in 08 7100 lately and that doesn't seem like a perfect fit. MasterFormat has a classification 10 41 16 - Emergency Key Cabinets under Manufactured Exterior Specialties. That seems more appropriate. Moving forward, I will be careful not to "dis" products on this forum. I was the one who used the term "clunky" in a previous post. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1670 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:48 pm:    Emergency Key Cabinet - 10 4116, because it's not hardware and is an emergency specialty. jerry o (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:44 pm:    I use Div 10. either 10 4400 or 10 80 00 Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 664 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 02:58 pm:    I have used 08-7913 - Key Storage Equipment, but 10-4116 looks better. Jeffrey Wilson CSI CCS Senior Member Username: wilsonconsulting Post Number: 105 Registered: 03-2006 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 04:46 pm:    I have used Div 08 & Div 10, depending on client preference (I'm an out-house specifier). Because MasterSpec includes them in 087100, I prefer to leave them there. If they get supplied as part of door hardware, that seems like a sufficiently logical location. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1671 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 04:58 pm:    MasterSpec is not always logical or infallible. I prefer to place something like this where it will be noticed by the GC or CM and not buried in a somewhat related section. I'm not certain about the work results, but I think the hardware sub-contractor is not the most logical supplier. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 666 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 05:02 pm:    I hate Knox boxes in the outhouse. Paper should be available without a key. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1672 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 05:05 pm:    At least the whole thing isn't coin-operated! Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 05:42 pm:    I put it in Division 10. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 667 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 08:17 pm:    The paper? As a toilet accessory? Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Friday, August 02, 2013 - 10:04 pm:    The paper goes in Division 01, under Owner-Furnished Items. J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 596 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 12:02 pm:    There are a couple of other people making these things, and Knox itself makes type of key boxes than those to be used by particular local fire departments. One of the problems I have had is finding out exactly what Owners want as well as what may be required by local authorities having jurisdiction. I can see an instance where there are two emergency key boxes, one for the fire department and one for other first responders. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1522 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 03, 2013 - 02:59 pm:    Don't forget that these are sometimes used by the US Postal Service to get into a building when mail boxes are inside. So there could be several such boxes, and they may not all be in the same spot. Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 166 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:42 am:    I'm just glad someone translated "Knox box" for me because my Rosetta Stone for American to Canadian was drawing a blank and trying to place anything in 087100 with a name like that was making my head hurt briefly. Here I thought there was some new, fantastic piece of door hardware I hadn't heard anything about though deliberate obfuscation within the Canadian marketplace!! Ride it like you stole it!!! Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1134 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 10:56 am:    Paul: My translator is working just fine: Knox Box = Knox Box, eh. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 167 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 11:06 am:    Maybe I need to check for an update eh? Thanks for the smile! Ride it like you stole it!!! George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 672 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 05:14 pm:    Knox Box is to Emergency Key Cabinet as Kleenex is to Facial Tissue. In my specifier days, I did not include them in 08710 because of the additional requirements from the fire department - it took a special form from the Owner to get them ordered and onsite, if I remember. So they would go in a special Division 13 section (remember the old Division 13 as a catch all?) or in 10999, another catch all. In my current role, I am somewhat at the mercy of my architect-clients, and several of their master specs include Knox Boxes in 08 71 00. I'm not totally comfortable with that, because it really has nothing to do with the keying system I am specifying, unlike key control cabinets, which have everything to do with my section because they are an important part of keying. Despite being more appropriate, both 08 7913 - Key Storage Equipment and 10 4116 Emergency Key Cabinet seem way too narrow scope for most projects. Thanks for the opinions - for the time being I guess I am resigned to occassionally including them in my hardware section. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1523 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Saturday, August 10, 2013 - 01:42 pm:    Plans cabinets (which store building floor plans at the fire command center) are often required by fire departments, which would fit nicely in a spec that includes emergency key cabinets. Ann G Baker (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, August 12, 2013 - 01:40 pm:    I'm late to the discussion - always - but I put the key box in Division 10.