Air Barrier Association of America

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message David J. Wyatt, CDT New member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 08:26 am:    Good morning. I am trying to help avoid future problems with air barriers on a series of public school projects. The school board has put together a guide specification. One of its quality requirements is that the installer be "licensed" by the ABAA. When I questioned the term, the client insisted that it be used. This seems like a well-intentioned but incorrect requirement. Can a trade association really confer licenses to install products? I hope the ever-reliable core of 4specs contributors can provide me with some perspective. Thank you. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 659 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 08:51 am:    Perhaps certification would be a better word, but ABBA does have a licensing program. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 569 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 10:06 am:    I thought they were listed as accredited contractors. David, keep in mind that your area might not have many local accredited ABAA contractors. The further they have to travel, and possibly put up workers in temporary housing, etc., the more it's going to cost the project. That has been a problem in some areas. If your client is aware of the added cost and recognizes the benefit, keep that client! It might make more sense to have a good testing program to make sure the work is done right though I have worked with some excellent installers in the past. Hard to say if you're better off with good QA vs. good QC. Probably a combination of both is in order. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 660 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 10:31 am:    "ABAA only has one Quality Assurance Program which is a complete program. There is no such thing as only having "ABAA Certified Installers" or "ABAA Accredited Contractors". The design professional either wants the ABAA Quality Assurance Program or they do not." A similar situation exists with firestop; FM Approved and UL Qualified installers are out there, but only a few, so requiring those credentials may result in a specification that is unlikely to be met. See the FCIA map of UL and FM installers. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 570 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 10:58 am:    My understanding was that the ABAA Quality Program is required by Code in some jurisdictions (such as Massachusetts) in which case you have to buy the entire package. Where not required by Code, the Quality Program can be viewed as a menu from which to choose. If the client wants the whole 'meal', wonderful. If they just want part and pieces, that's life. In David's case it seems that he really needs to find out what the client desires and what they're willing to pay for. David J. Wyatt, CDT Junior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 11:00 am:    Thanks, both of you, for the good advice. I appreciate having this forum available and having people of sound mind posting on it. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1132 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 11:36 am:    The AABA does have a "Licensing Agreement" for their certified installers (and others), but that is associated with the AABA certification mark. AABA does call those certified installers as a "licensed installer" when they have completed the licensing agreement, but it's not the same as a licensed contractor. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 571 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 12:05 pm:    Sound mind? I haven't been accused of that in years! Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 589 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 12:16 pm:    Realizing that, for several reasons, the Owner may not want to challenge the state requirement that requires the ABAA Quality Program but such proprietary requirements raise anti-trust concerns. States can create monopolies but if they do so they are required to actively supervise the monopoly. Given the tendencies of most adopting jurisdictions the likelihood of the active supervision is unlikely. Thus there is the likelihood that this and similar regulations are illegal. On the subject of QA vs QC. In the context of the IBC QA is owner initiated monitoring of acceptance criteria. Quality Control is an integral element of the contractors means and methods and should not be regulated by the Owner. Because the effectiveness of QC activities is dependent on the company culture and the motivation of the contractor's management I suggest that mandating the existence of a formal QC program may provide no value. They may have all of the paperwork in place but the quality may not be impacted. In the case of contractors that have an effective quality control program they will likely have better reputations and safety records. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 667 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 12:46 pm:    For what it is worth... "Licensure is the mandatory process by which a governmental agency grants time-limited permission to an individual to engage in a given occupation after verifying that he/she has met predetermined and standardized criteria, and offers title protection for those who meet the criteria." From "The NOCA Guide to Understanding Credentialing Concepts". NOCA (National Organization for Competency Assurance) is now called ICE (Institute for Credentialling Excellence). These folks are the standard setters for credentialling, certification, licensure and so forth, and they are fairly specific in reserving the term "licensure" to a governmentally authorized credential. Notwithstanding the "Licensing Agreement" AABA has, what they are doing is certifying installers. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1519 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 02:45 pm:    I am not aware of any Massachusetts Building Code provision mandating the ABAA quality program. The Commonwealth has moved away from having many of its own amendments to the IBC because it is too costly and time consuming to manage that process with not much public benefit. It may be possible that some public agencies require AMAA QC program, but I would really be surprised. I just don't see them being this detailed. I know that the main state agency that funds schools does not require this. In any case, there would not be a restriction of competition because lots of installers are members, and lots of different products could be used. David J. Wyatt, CDT Member Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2011 Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 02:47 pm:    George, Thank you. That is interesting. It helps to understand there are standards for these things. Robert E. Woodburn Senior Member Username: bob_woodburn Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 03:00 pm:    I was recently told that the savings for not using an FM-approved firestopping installer (which was specified) on a two-story healthcare facility would be around $50,000. That seems like a hefty premium... J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 588 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 03:22 pm:    Other language that you may have in your specifications that will restrict competition include producer membership in the Cast Stone Institute and contractor membership in the National Terrazzo and Mosaic Association. I retain these on public work because I think it does keep out the guys who are trying to do this out of the back of their pickups, but you may actually find qualified people who, for whatever reason, have chosen not to belong to an orgainzation and participate in their QA/QC program. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 572 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 03:24 pm:    I wouldn't be too surprised if the MEP subs included firestopping in their pricing as well. Could be an inexperienced group of GC's not knowing that they need to tell everyone to exclude firestopping from their bids. You may be paying twice. Obvious concern is how the bidders intend to provide the same quality. If not approved Installer, what is the added cost of inspections? Also, how many approved Installers are in the area where the project is located? You might want to talk with FCIA and see if there are any other issues that you need to address. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 530 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 04:46 pm:    Prior to specifying an ABAA-certified installer, make certain you have current information on the impact on your project specifications and the budget. Based upon project experience 18 months ago, if an ABAA-certified installer is required, the installation - per that installer's licensing agreement with the ABAA - must utilize an ABAA quality inspector for a series of inspections, the fee for which is significant. In addition, that inspection only covers that portion of the building air barrier installed by that certified installer, so the inspection does not take in transition materials or air barriers in adjacent assemblies. So for a complete air barrier inspection, you will also have to hire another inspector. When I was looking into this, I was unable to obtain a copy of the ABAA Quality Manual from the ABAA that describes in detail the installation requirements and inspection requirements for the project. In other words, I was in the awkward position of including unknown specification requirements from a standard that the publisher would not make available to a design professional. I am hoping that after my and several others' conversations with the ABAA that this has been remedied. Our experience included a demand from the ABAA installer that the masonry flashings be included in their scope of work in order to comply with ABAA QM requirements. This generated a change request of tens of thousands of dollars, with of course no compensating credit coming from the mason. I recall that this ended with our developing an alternate set of QA/QC requirements and deleting the ABAA certification requirement. Hopefully, these kinds of issues have been resolved as this program matured, as the ABAA group has a substantial body of knowledge useful to our projects. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 598 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 05:05 pm:    Phil No good intention or plan for Owner protection or QA goal goes unpunished Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 591 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Monday, July 29, 2013 - 06:10 pm:    Something is very very wrong when the building code requires the use of contractors approved by an organization that imposes requirements that you have no way of evaluating. On top of this the architect and his consultants have to accept professional responsibility for the design.