| Author |
Message |
Peggy White, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: peggy
Post Number: 48
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 02:13 pm: |    |
I'm curious as to whether anyone within the 4specs community know about this type of finish: "We have cedar siding, both inside and out, that we are staining black. The client's just asked about charred finishes - something we proposed to them many months ago but they were not excited until they recently saw a sample from another project. So now I'm researching this finish, it is apparently a traditional Japanese method known as "shou-sugi-ban" or "yakisugi." The idea is to burn the surface of the wood, then rinse/brush off the loose char, then maybe seal with oil (or maybe not)."
Thanks in advance for your insights.... |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 399
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 11:02 am: | |
Hi Peggy.
I've seen samples from Delta - http://deltamillworks.com/. There are a number of options in terms of finish and even wood species but I have never specified the process. I presume other millwork houses have different names for the various finishes. Delta uses 'alligator', 'tiger' and other ways to describe the end product. Keep in mind that their 'alligator' finish looks like it will weather and will probably rub off if placed in a location where people can get to it. I don't know how permanent the finish is or if there is any way to maintain it once it is installed. |
Robert E. Woodburn
Senior Member
Username: bob_woodburn
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 11:24 am: | |
Delta Millworks' photo reminds me of the black charred surface of the well-preserved interior wood sliding doors in the ruins of Herculaneum, which was engulfed in fine ash and pyroclastic flow by the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD. Those doors have lasted 1,933 years. If properly protected, it can be a long-lasting finish... |
Gerard Sanchis
Senior Member
Username: gerard_sanchis
Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 01:06 pm: | |
I guess mimicry, as in similarity in appearance, is one of the human traits. Similar solutions to a problem occur at the same time between cultures at the antipodes – Japan and the Swiss Alps for instance. While traveling in Switzerland a few years ago, I asked one of the locals how they achieved the finish (between medium to light brown) on their wood chalets. I was convinced that a stain was used. The answer was the same as Peggy’s client request – the wood was charred.
Unfortunately I wasn’t able to get the information as to further treatment after the wood is burned.
Peggy I know this doesn’t answer your question, but I thought bringing up the connection between the two cultures was interesting. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 555
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 01:43 pm: | |
Ken,
Thanks for the great link.
Wayne |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 400
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 02:50 pm: | |
I wonder if you have to treat the wood before charring it. I know that's how you get wood to be fire-retardent, charring it after treatment since the char then protects the wood from further damage.
Bob, are you saying that we have to embed the wood in volcanic ash for 20 centuries before we can use the wood? I wonder how to specify THAT.
My guess is that any treatment after charring will affect the look. Some of the samples do look like they've been smoothed, with most of the char removed. The 'alligator' finish seems to be more of an 'as-charred' appearance.
It would be fun to see how different pre-char finishes and wood species react to the charring. Who's up for a bonfire? |
Peggy White, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP BD+C
Senior Member
Username: peggy
Post Number: 49
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 03:07 pm: | |
Its an intriguing topic, isn't it? Here is a video I found that demonstrates a fairly simple approach, including applying a finish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CLvXUcOM-U
Gerard - yes, the cultural connection is interesting. Switzerland and Japan - who knew? |
Robert E. Woodburn
Senior Member
Username: bob_woodburn
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 03:13 pm: | |
No, I wasn't suggesting volcanic embedment, especially for millennia, as a viable treatment. Among other things, the availability, location and scheduling of such treatment would be problematic for both specifiers and estimators.
Though in the example cited it wasn't a specified (or even desired) finish, the treatment itself took very little time--maybe only minutes or seconds. However, protection from human contact (and perhaps exposure to other destructive organisms, light, and the atmosphere) were likely key factors in preserving the wood's appearance and integrity. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 450
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 03:21 pm: | |
Why a surprise--haven't you all heard of Swiss chard??! |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 03:31 pm: | |
"The Good and Great must ever shun
That reckless and abandoned one
Who stoops to perpetrate a pun"
Lewis Carroll |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 401
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 04:27 pm: | |
and from the truth is stranger than fiction column, there actually is a Japanese Chard as well - http://www.kitazawaseed.com/seeds_japanese_chard_1.html. Who knew? |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 402
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 04:35 pm: | |
Peggy, thanks for the video link.
You would certainly want to specify a water-based varnish or at least recommend that fabricators allow the wood to cool sufficiently before applying a flamable finish coat.
Presumably you would get more contrast in the finished product if you only lightly charred the surface before abrading. Probably no abrasion for the as-charred finish. The duration of charring would seem to affect how deep the char would get, at least until the point when the char would be sufficiently thick to finally protect the core of the wood.
I guess this wouldn't be a good option for retrofitting onto an existing wood framed building with cedar shingles. |
Robert E. Woodburn
Senior Member
Username: bob_woodburn
Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - 05:47 pm: | |
The youtube video shows that doing this by hand with a torch and brush is labor-intensive, time consuming, and likely expensive, and probably not suited for in-situ application. Delta Millwork likely has semi-automated equipment to produce the finish. It may even be one of few shops set up to do that. Unusual finishes may best be specified through well-worded sample submittal requirements; I'd be especially chary about means and methods... |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2013 - 04:33 pm: | |
oddly enough, there was a letter to the editor in the SF Chronicle today about this topic. The writer is an adjunct assistant professor of medicine, Division of Occupational and Environmental Medicine, UCSF, and her letter says:
"The article described the recent use of a traditional Japanese wood treatment called shou-sugi-ban and recommended it for interior decor. Shou-sugi-ban uses controlled burning to change the color, texture and chemical makeup of wood. When you burn wood, you create carcinogens, including polycyclie aromatic hydrocarbons. Some of the carcinogens are released in the smoke, but some with remain in the charred wood if you put out the fire before the wood burns to ash. There is no sealant available that has been proven to seal in polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. There is no safe level of exposure to these carcinogens, and it is not safe to cover your walls with charred wood." |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 458
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 05, 2013 - 05:38 pm: | |
Yes, but it smells good, you know, like hot tar being placed on your street or that smell when you walk into a tire store.
As to the sealers, most of those probably aren't good to be inhaling either. Probably true of most of the products we design into our buildings like nylon carpet fiber, fiberglass insulation and ceiling products, mineral fibers, stain resistant coatings on fabrics, etc. It's great how some of the better advancements have been in the paint and adhesives industries with reduction in VOCs.
I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the idea that we shouldn't allow any wood-based products in buildings because all wood has naturally occuring formaldehyde. |
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 179
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 08:26 am: | |
Like the formaldehyde that occurs naturally in fruit, vegetables, and animals (including humans)? |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 459
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 09:04 am: | |
Exactly. Get rid of the humans and our buildings will be much more pristine, especially hospitals. Hospitals are not good places for humans. Humans belong outside as much as possible with the rest of the formaldehyde-forming organisms. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 04:07 pm: | |
Doing away with the human element on the planet would solve most, if not all, of the problems in the world. It is messy, destructive, careless, and dangerous at best. |
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger
Post Number: 454
Registered: 07-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 04:27 pm: | |
And, heaven help us, humans are carbon-based. |
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 180
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 04:56 pm: | |
Dave;
Speak for yourself: personally I am alcohol based. ;-p |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 461
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 05:25 pm: | |
Carbon and alcohol. What a volatile combination. Can't be Code Compliant.
When I sit near the door at meetings I'm usually just concerned about being a fire hazard. Now that seems to have a whole new meeting (not that I have much alcohol content at most meetings). |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1092
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 07:54 pm: | |
What about indoor air quality with some people "off-gassing."
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
Peggy White, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP BD+C
Senior Member
Username: peggy
Post Number: 57
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - 08:02 pm: | |
You guys crack me up!
Specifiers: Carbon based, formaldehyde infused, alcohol soaked, harmful gas emitting, and blowing smoke all at the same time! |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2013 - 11:03 am: | |
And don't forget those of us who are more than 500 miles from our place of manufacture. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 462
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2013 - 02:49 pm: | |
I don't know what my recycled content is. I guess I comply with the Buy America Act.
I don't think I want to end up in a landfill. Wow, kind of a morbid thought for the day: Is a cemetery just a landfill with headstones? |
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 181
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2013 - 03:04 pm: | |
Q: "Is a cemetery just a landfill with headstones?"
A: Yes. Maybe not next year but eventually that land is used for something else. Not morbid, just realistic. Remember: “Death, a metabolic affliction causing total shutdown of all life functions, has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.” (from “The Onion” 1/22/97, but true nevertheless).
Given that I am still planning to live forever: so far, so good. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 463
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2013 - 04:08 pm: | |
Ellis, ever see The Magnificent Seven? "So far, so good" is one of my favorite quotes from the story that Steve McQueen told about the guy who fell off a 10 story building. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1617
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 07, 2013 - 04:14 pm: | |
It's also a Steven Wright line...one of many that make me laugh out loud.
"Half the people you know are below average"
"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand."
"OK, so what's the speed of dark?"
and so many more... |
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 182
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 08, 2013 - 08:12 am: | |
Ken;
I have seen “The Magnificent Seven” many times. Good movie, although I still like its source “The Seven Samurai” better (Kurosawa versus Sturges is no contest). Was that Steve McQueen (“Vin”) quote form the scene where he is riding shotgun for Yul Brynner (“Chris”) on the hearse?
Lynn;
I agree: Steve Wright is very funny.
“When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane, going the wrong way.” |
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