Here we go again

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 846 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 09:40 pm:    A client (the Developer) has asked us to prepare specifications for a 60 story condo building in such manner as to reduce the number of Industrial Standards referenced, their reason for doing this is that the condo vulture attorneys nit pick every little item after construction to show that the construction did not comply with the Industrial standard, The developer agrees that certain standards that are referenced in the Building Code can not be eliminated, but they would like us to do our best to make their lives easier. I do not think this is even possible, I believe most standards are referenced back to the Florida Building Code. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1039 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 09:59 pm:    Jerome: Where do you find these people? Have a copy of the FBC on hand opened to Chapter 35. When you come across a reference standard in the guide spec, check to see if it's listed in the FBC. If it is not in the list, purchase a copy of the standard then reprint applicable portions into your specifications in lieu of the reference. Sounds like additional fee to me... Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 467 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 10:19 pm:    I have only worked on one project in Florida, it was a large condo complex, and my involvement was during the litigation phase.... If the project is Owner-Builder, perhaps you don't even need specifications. All you really need is a list of materials and assemblies...many of which they will give you anyway. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 852 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:43 pm:    Nathan, the Owner is not the Builder, the project will be going out for competitive bid, though the bidders will be pre-selected. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:48 pm:    The litigation phase! Ha. Thanks for the laugh! Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 853 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:52 pm:    Ron, what can I say, I attrack the wierdos in this business, wierder still is how many 50+ story condo buildings have been built in So FL. without any specs and drawings that are less than one would expect...oh and many, many lawsuits. In regards to your recommendation, don't I need permission to reprint even a portion of a standard? And if I did follow your recommendation, how do I determine what portion of the standard needs to be reprinted. The Developer is saying that the contractor is unable to meet all requirements of the standard, sometimes this is because the standard does not reflect the special conditions of South Florida. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel or create a massive Project Manual, just trying to appease a good client. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 854 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:56 pm:    Liz, did I miss something, don't understand your post? Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:09 am:    Nathan referred to the "litigation phase" - I should have addressed Nathan specifically. It made me laugh. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 855 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:05 am:    Liz, my apologies, Nathan's mention of the litigation phase did not even register, I have been fortunate to be involved in so many condo projects, yet no litigation...knock on wood many times. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 566 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 03:49 am:    old, humorous definition --- Six Phases of a Project - Enthusiaism - Dissillusionment - Panic - Search for the guilty - Punishment of the innocent - Praise and honours for the non-participants John McGrann Senior Member Username: jmcgrann Post Number: 91 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 09:46 am:    John, so very true. I imagine most here spend the majority of their careers bringing a semblance of grace to phase 3. John T. McGrann, Jr., AIA, CSI, CCS, LEED AP ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 324 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 10:28 am:    Jerome, most reference standards offer more than one option. Too often, CD's only refer to the reference standard without identify Grade, Type, Class or other salient feature, leaving the field wide open. At that point you're almost better off not referencing the standard. If you can find a product that suits your needs and copy their verbiage regarding compliance with specific portions of a standard, they would probably be okay with cutting and pasting content. That way you're not violating the copyright of the standard but still getting what you want. The other part of this is that many very good and useful reference standards are not listed in the various Codes but perhaps should be. I'd still prefer to just be able to say Organization Standard No. ___, Class _, Type _, Grade _...and be done with it. Any reason why you can't just list a basis of design and write it as an open proprietary spec? Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 03:35 pm:    I like this other old description of a project's construction timeline too: 1.Bid Award – congratulations and celebration for everyone. 2.Reality Sets In – it’s going to be tougher than we hoped. 3.Take That! – malicious compliance with the contract documents. 4.Death March – to the courthouse we go. 5.Final Battle – send in the Attorneys to bayonet the wounded. 6.Epilogue – the Accountants arrive to strip the bodies. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 856 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 04:07 pm:    okay, okay, enuf with the humor and anecdotes, how about some more help here, who knows the pace we are seeing of proposed condo developments in S FL may impact some of my peers and perhaps what I learn can help other specwriters. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1435 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 04:19 pm:    I've heard about this before, but only in Florida. Will the client allow proprietary specifications? Or perhaps specifications with only 2 or 3 named products? That way you could zero in using the standards in the usual way. Then write a short version spec without many standards, but only list the products that you know meet them, no substitutions.