Stamped/Signed Shop Drawings

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Author Message a (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 01:34 pm:    Issue: The owner's QC department wanted to require stamping/signing of all shop drawings of the Contractor's [delegated] designers, since it has come up that there has been inconsistency between projects, even on just the structural-related drawings. They since pulled back on that request. But it is unclear what specific criteria would trigger this or what should be required. Any thoughts? Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 455 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 04:36 pm:    This question might be better posed in the CA forum of 4Specs.com. Also, the question itself needs more backstory or amplification. It sounds like you are asking about deferred (design-build) submittals? Depending on the type of submittal, it is often mandatory that they be stamped and signed by a licensed design professional, particularly Fire/Life-safety and/or Structural types of product/submittals. If they are asking the A/E of Record to Stamp & Sign the contractors submittals with the A/E's seal, that is inappropriate, and in most States, illegal, as they were not prepared under the A/E's direct supervision. In California, OSHPD is not up to speed on this, causing lots of confusion and heartburn, but DSA has finally acknowledged their own laws and has produced useful forms and proceedures related this issue: - http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/forms/DSA-1-DEL_7-15-09.pdf - http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/pubs/IR_A-18_rev08-03-11.pdf - http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/pubs/IR_A-19_rev04-07-08.pdf Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 483 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 05:43 pm:    The delegated designers need to seal and sign the documents they prepare. These need not be shop drawings but the delegated designer could seal and stamp the shop drawings if they did not prepare seperate drawings. Shop drawings that are derived from seperate design drawings need not be sealed and stamped by a design professional. The design professionals retained by the Owner should not seal and sign the drawings prepared by the contractor. Section 107.3.4 of the 2009 IBC requires that the Owner designate a "design professional in responsible charge" to coordinate the work. The design professional in responsible charge would be responsible for coordiating the work of the delegated designers. T.J. Simons, CSI, CCS (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 02:09 pm:    We've had some success with OSHPD by pointing out that the Code specifically requires the AOR/EOR to sign the drawings, not stamp them. There's been a little negotiation with them about a note on the drawings to accompany the signature. Another tack we took on a recent project was amending the OSHPD plan review application, and listing these "third party" design professionals as design professionals of record for a stipulated scope of work (Fire Alarm, for example), with the AOR still having overall responsibility. In this scenario, the "third party" engineers stamped and signed the drawings; our office only signed them. a (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 07:25 pm:    I did not think of it, and yes, the CA forum would have been the better place to post. Will also post there, but help me understand more fully, since this has been already responded to here. There seems to be several issues: 1) Design-Build vs. Design-Bid-Build 2) Type of Submittal (Fire-Life/Safety-Structural vs. other) 3) Shop Drawings originating from Contractor Designer vs. Shop Drawings based on A/E Designs 4) Stamping vs. Signing 1- While this may be an issue with D-B, that is a whole other issue, and the context of this question was solely with D-B-B. 2- "Depending on the type of submittal, it is often mandatory that they be stamped and signed by a licensed design professional, particularly Fire/Life-safety and/or Structural types of product/submittals." - This touches on the issue. Assumption was that Fire/Life-Safety/Structural (and not other) submittals were the types requiring stamping/signing. The question is which ones? All? As mentioned earlier, there was inconsistency between projects and what different Contractors provided. 3- "Shop drawings that are derived from separate design drawings need not be sealed and stamped by a design professional." - This helps. But, maybe I don’t understand enough. There seems to be a lot of gray area here. Take a railing delegated to a subcontractor. There is a certain amount of “design” (cross sections, spacing, materials) going into the contract documents. But if a sub also provides shop drawings, does this mean they don’t need to be stamped? How about temporary shoring? 4- "…the "third party" engineers stamped and signed the drawings; our office only signed them." - This topic wasn’t even on my radar. What’s the difference between these two? And what are the requirements and responsibilities of each (should something go wrong)? a (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Friday, June 22, 2012 - 07:29 pm:    May I suggest all future responses be posted in the CA forum? Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 484 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2012 - 08:03 pm:    This issue about stamping deferred submittals has been around for many years, in my case over 20 years. OSHPD has accepted the structural engineer signing a stamp that says that they had found the submittal to be compatible with their design. When this was done the professional engineer's stamp of the Engineer of record for the primary structure was not used. The purpose of the “stamp” that the EOR signed was to document that the interface between the scope of the EOR’s work and the delegated designer’s was properly coordinated. Among other things this includes verification that the loads from the delegated design work will not overload the members designed by the EOR. I like the approach taken by TJ Simons where the delegated designers were added to the OSHPD Plan review application. This suggests that the rules for deferred submittals do not make sense. OSHPD should know better what has been accepted but it seems they continue to imply that a professional stamp is needed. Makes me wonder why they do this. The issue is not the type of submittal i.e. structural or fire sprinklers but rather whether the documents are professional engineer’s instruments of service, which need to be sealed and stamped, or whether the documents are classical shop drawings which reflect the contractor’s interpretation of these instruments of service. In some cases the contractor and the delegated designer find it appropriate to make the shop drawings serve both purposes which requires the documents to be sealed and signed.. Typical structural steel or rebar shop drawings only have the shop drawing stamp and are not submitted to OSHPD. Temporary shoring is not part of the construction documents. There is language in state statutes stating that the CBC cannot regulate temporary shoring or bracing and thus OSHPD has no jurisdiction. Suggest that OSHA has primary jurisdiction for issues related to temporaty construction shoring. The case could be made for a hospital that was being occupied while work was being performed for OSHPD to have authority to regulate the temporary work but that is a limited situation.