VERY ANGRY!!! ARGHHHHHH! MANF WEBSITE

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Author Message Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 01:39 pm:    Now I know we have all had discussions about manufacturer's websites that require us to register to download tech brochures, data, dwgs, etc., and how it is an unnecessary step. BUT THIS ONE TAKES THE CAKE! I am so very angry at this I had to share with my fellow specifiers. Sorry LOL! After registering, and going through the whole process at this site, up pops a error code saying that my zip code indicates that I cannot get their brochure or tech data because they do not offer products in my area!!!!!!! OMG!!! REALLY...REALLY!! Do they NOT UNDERSTAND?!!! I am trying to specify their products on a HUGE COLLEGE project, and I am hitting a roadblock like this?!!!!! Je suis tellement en colère à ce fabricants stupides que je pouvais cracher. Jésus-Christ! Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Gerard Sanchis Senior Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 05:38 pm:    Melissa, J'ignorais que le francais etait la langue qui exprimait le mieux la colere. I think german would be more appropriate. I get the feeling that you will not specify that manufacturer's product. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 06:20 pm:    AS I mentioned earlier - When I attend Construct in Phoenix in September, I plan on informing each manufacturer who requires registration to access their website, that I will not be specifying their product. I've spent the better part of a year updating a Master Guide Spec for a Client and I can tell you with reasonable certainty, that any manufacturer who required registration to access their website did not make it into my spec. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 151 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 06:30 pm:    @Gerard, yes French is the best language to swear with these days when everyone has evolved to Spanish or German. LOL! @Gerard and @Richard; I do have to specify this product for job though. I cannot call them because I want to maintain some civility. I did tell the architect what was going on; he cannot get them on the phone either. So, hopefully...he will see this as I see it. Hopefully I do not have specify them any longer. I would love to yell out publicly whom this manufacturer is to all of you...but again...I would like to maintain my sweet southern composure. LOL hee hee. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Dennis C. Elrod, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: delrodtn Post Number: 28 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 06:35 pm:    I feel your pain :-( Dennis C. Elrod, AIA Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 572 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 06:39 pm:    There are limits, but simply registering for site access is not an unreasonable request, as long as it's limited to a few items. I certainly don't mind registering once, and most websites will set a cookie so you don't have to log in again. In this case, it seems Melissa had to go through a lot more than entering her name, and the automated response was ridiculous. I have several canned responses of my own, which I quickly send to those manufacturers who put up unnecessary roadblocks. The good thing is, while I used them frequently many years ago, I haven't had occasion to use one for quite some time, so things are getting better. Refusing to specify those manufacturers that require registration is similar to the "I won't specify you unless you're a CSI member" attitude. Remember, you're working for your client, and if you eliminate a perfectly good product - perhaps one superior to all others - simply because the manufacturer wants you to register, you are not serving your client's best interest. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 460 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 06:42 pm:    Point taken. Given all others interests, mine count for something too and I do not live to feed demographics to marketing people. Dante has a level of hell designated for marketing people. Alan Mays, AIA Senior Member Username: amays Post Number: 94 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 07:00 pm:    Sometimes the simple solution is an email to the appropriate person avoiding the bottom feeders. I always remember the author Tom Peters solution he used when he was having some difficulty with a company. He contacted the CEO. Sometimes all it takes is the top guys knowing that they could lose business due to their own employees actions. Remember, all they hear from their employees is that everything is fine and that marketing is now gotten all these new business leads. If it was only that easy... Sheldon is right. We cannot just ignore a manufacturer but we have trouble with getting their info. I also remember when I recieved a set of shop drawings that looked like a 3rd grader drew it. I wanted to reject it, but after talking to the lead CA on the project, I was persuaded to change my mind. The subcontractor was the best installer of the product in the area. He just did not hire good draftsmen. As my CA put it, do you fire the best installer just because they give you bad shops? The shop drawings were right with the information on them. They were just sloppy and hard to understand. BTW, they were even drawn on Manilla Construction paper. I keep saying the guy got his kids to do the shop drawings. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 152 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 07:42 pm:    Point taken Sheldon, and I agree. I agree also with email to key people as well about this issue. I have settled down to a point now. LOL. If you want to know the website, and see if you could possibly gather some data for me...LOL my work email is melissa@melissajaguiar.com Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 264 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 08:45 pm:    Ah, but it there are multiple manufacturers of which some offer easy access the others do not... Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 573 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 10:55 pm:    Another good discussion for an evening in Phoenix... James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 117 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 09:30 am:    The true absurdity here is the assumption that the specifier only works in her local area. How parochial is that? My firm does work all over the United States as do many others. I would hope I would not have to "register" each project that was in a different part of the country. That said, I do appreciate when a manufacturer's representative tells me honestly that they do not have a presence in a certain area. In fact, that is something I try to allow for when editing my master specifications for a particular project. Yes, it is maddening to have to register to get information from a manufacturer's web site, especially when it is more cumbersome than it needs to be. If someone can demonstrate the value to my client of my registering I will do so gladly. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1497 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 09:49 am:    What if Melissa gave the information to all of us and we all informed the manufacturer of our displeasure? I think we'd carry more weight as a larger set of individuals. Melissa, Watch for my email... Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 510 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 02:39 pm:    I understand what Sheldon is saying, but our time, especially for the independents out there, is valuable and to have to spend an inordinate amount of time registering for access to a website as did Melissa, and then be told they can't send you the info because of your location is a total waste of time. When I was working on the master updates, I was on a tight schedule and didn't have a lot of time to waste, so if I couldn't get the info I needed, I moved on to the next manufacturer. Another way around it - most websites have some contact info available before you need to register - so if I really wanted or needed to spec that product, I would call them. At the same time I would explain to them my frustration with being required to register. Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 09:43 am:    It would be a valuable service that CSI could perform for its members if it offered marketing tips to those who want to sell to us. Maybe they do: does anyone know? Or, CSI could develop a website registering system so that we would register once, for all manufacturers who participated. I'd bet that a lot of manufacturers would find it valuable enough to spend money on. I keep thinking that if CSI offered more, tangible benefits, people would want to join. I hope CSI staff monitors forums such as this to learn better what are the daily hassles. Then they can try new ideas rather than focusing on the same old insurance and car rental benefits. Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 304 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 10:04 am:    I do a monthly newsletter to manufacturers - advertisers and those who want the newsletter. You can see many of them in my "Marketing 101" area. http://www.4specs.com/marketing/ While my consistent theme is faster, easier to use and more comprehensive, no registration to access the specs, cad and bim is a secondary theme. I do not provide the icons indicating they have the info if registration is required. Every month I get several manufacturers asking where the "names" are sent. I have to explain that names can only be obtained with registration and why we do not require any registration. I use an example that seems to hit home to the manufacturer. Would you return to a real estate website if after visiting several property pages a day later you received a call from a Realtor asking if you needed more information on specific properties? Everyone seems to understand that example - and thus why registration should not be required on their website. Colin Gilboy Publisher, 4specs.com 435.654.5775 - Utah 800.369.8008 John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1406 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 11:36 am:    Melissa, I think you should out them right here on 4specs. What you are complaining about is simply factual, and non slanderous. Maybe that would get their attention a bit. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Senior Member Username: melissaaguiar Post Number: 153 Registered: 12-2003 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 11:40 am:    I did get a phone call from the rep over the weekend apologizing for not responding to me. Melissa J. Aguiar, CSI, CCS, SCIP Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1020 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 11:50 am:    Tony: CSI staff cannot initiate services that would have a cost to the Institute without first receiving Board approval. Although your idea, in concept, has merit, it may be a little beyond CSI's current capabilities--I don't know. If you feel that this is a feasible idea, do some research on the subject and approach an Institute Board member (an officer or director) with your findings. If the board member is in agreement with you about the idea's viability, they can present it to the Board. This process goes for any idea. The brain trust for CSI does not just reside in the Board, staff, committees, and task teams, but also in the members themselves. If you have an idea that you think will benefit CSI and its members, please let the Board know. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 193 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 12:23 pm:    Ron I sent an idea (Building Technology Education program) with pretty good description to the Board last March and the only response was from two board members. Not very encouraging! You would think Board members would be a little more responsive whether it was positive, neutral, or negative. I have since had the idea discussed extensively on CSI LinkedIn and three chapters have jointly submitted a resolution for the annual meeting on the idea. Tony Wolf, AIA, CCS, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: tony_wolf Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2007 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 12:55 pm:    Ron: It sounds like no staff at the Institute can have an idea for improving service? Of course staff can't implement without approval, but I hope that someone there is concerned with improving service, and can develop new proposals for the Board. My thought is that by offering benefits that make our work easier, maybe there would not need to be annual membership drives, because the value of membership would be self-evident. I don't mind being part of the brain trust, but paying membership fees and then needing to do the legwork seems wrong. It seems clear that every contributor to this discussion feels that many manufacturer websites waste our time. I offered 2 quick ideas because it's a problem/need that should be addressed, not by an ad hoc campaign of a group of specifiers, but by the organization we have in place. It's not the only problem that we share. Hopefully, the Institute wants to continually improve member service, and is searching for ideas to do this. But, how long have we made these same futile complaints? Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1021 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 02:28 pm:    Bob: Did you mean March 2012 or 2011? I just went back through all the recommendations and Board action items from March 2012 to present, and I did not see where your idea was mentioned or discussed (as a current director, I don't recall ever hearing about your suggestion). If it was 2011, then I wasn't on the board at that time, but I'll look into it if you want me to. Like any suggestion to a upper level of management or governance, you have to be the champion for that idea. Don't rely on the individual to whom you passed on the idea to be the sole supporter of your suggestion--stay actively connected to the process and lobby other board members about your suggestion to broaden the support. From the title of your program I think I know what you're suggesting and I think it would be a good idea. Building technology is a subject that is seriously lacking in other organizations...notably, the AIA. --------------- Tony: Staff has ideas and they do present them to the board, but just waiting around for someone else to recognize the problem and act on it is assuming way too much. Right now, the main problem for CSI is member retention; thus, the member value proposition is important. However, only 6% of CSI's membership identify themselves as a specifier (though those who identify themselves as architects--about 20%--may also be specifiers, but that subset number is not known). Although the group of specifiers on this discussion forum have complained about the manufacturer website registration issue, it may not be as significant a problem that requires a solution that would appeal to the majority of the membership--at least from the staff's point of view. However, if you can generate enough interest in the problem and offer a viable solution (that doesn't cost a lot to create and maintain, I should add), then, by all means, present your recommendation. You state, "how long have we made these same futile complaints?" Where or to whom have you made the complaints? Although I fully support and promote 4specs.com, it is not an official CSI platform; therefore, it isn't officially monitored by the Board or CSI staff. To quote a cliche, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"; but, if the squeaky wheel isn't heard by those who care, then the grease will never come. -------------- To all: If you are genuinely concerned about how CSI functions, then either get actively involved yourself, or identify, nominate, and vote for officers and directors who will make a difference for the organization. Bystanders don't lead. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 194 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 03:39 pm:    Ron It was March 2012. It was emailed by me to all board members and the education committee. Since the response from the Board was very limited with no response from education committee members, I started promoting in on various forums including CSI LinkedIn since then. The response there has been very positive over the past several months but with no board member participation. One chapter (Willamette Valley) has taken the idea and started to offer a Building Technology Education program. Two other chapters (Albuquerque and Denver) are considering starting such a program. Those three chapters have jointly submitted a resolution for the annual meeting for the Board to appoint a R&D task team. I don't feel that I have to lobby board members of an organization like CSI. They all received by two-page description of the concept several months ago. They all should be paying attention to discussions on CSI related forums. I assume that they will now pay some attention since a resolution has been submitted. By the way, one of side benefits of such a program is to introduce CSI to a lot of potential new members - especially emerging professionals. Beneficial programs attract new members! Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 1022 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 04:07 pm:    Bob: Although we've exchanged emails since my last post, I'll respond here as well. I did receive an email back on 3/26/12 with your proposal, and I apologize for not responding--I can't explain why I missed it. Sometimes personal contact generates more response that a blast email to to the entire board--thus my "lobby" response earlier. As I mentioned in our email conversation, I will make sure it is a topic of discussion at next week's CSI board meeting. Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1273 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 06:02 pm:    I"ve had this happen a few times and where the manufacturers mess up is that they do not have a line for "where is the project located?". They still (many of them) seem to assume that we all work sort of locally, and that the architect locaiton is reasonably close (like - no more than a state away) to the project location. This really is a manufacturer/vendor education opportunity. I've been told that the architect location is important for the allocation of "sales credit" to the theoretical sales rep. So, Colin -- here's the issue in a nut-shell: if product sales are dependent on deciding who gets the sales commission, that firm will never expand their business outside of their immediate geographic area -- which sort of defeats some of the idea of having a web site. In Melissa's case, they should have had a box at the very beginning that said "if you are in these zip codes, please contact our competitor and no, we don't care where your project is". J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 457 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 06:31 pm:    I have always tried to be aware of the relationship between compensation and project location for the reps that I deal with. I have nearly always found that "my" local rep is willing to help regardless of who gets credit. I sometime need to get handed off to a rep in the area where the project is located because they will know more about local conditions (codes, installers, differences in products, etc.). I find that if I am up front with them, I get more help. In Melissa's case, the website prevented a helpful rep from becoming aware of her project. In a 24/7 world the website needs to get smarter or reps (or their bosses) need to be "on call" 24/7. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1499 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 12:08 pm:    I just got off the phone with a gentleman from Milgard; in the upper right hand corner of the website www.milgard.com there's a place to click Technical Resources and it takes you to http://pro.milgard.com/ where there is technical information and no registration. They are working to improve the visibility of this link.