Acoustical Sealant Corroding Copper T...

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Author Message James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 113 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 01:46 pm:    I just received an e-mail from a client stating that a certain well-known brand of acoustic sealant was corroding copper tubing in his facility. A quick internet search did not turn up anything on this supject. Has anyone in the 4-specs community heard similar reports? I am not giving the name of the manufacture until I have reasonable evidence that it is not this one product alone or that the problem is not coincidental. Please e-mail me directly if you wish. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 114 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:32 pm:    Anyone? Bueller . . . Bueller? All I was able to find so far was a Japanese article about aldehydes in synthetic lubricants added to refrigerants causing "ant's nest corrosion" in copper tubing. Are there any forensic mechanical engineers out there with some insight? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 505 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:45 pm:    In respone to an inquiry, I received the following from one of my Sealant people who used to work with Dow: "Sealant may have been an acetoxy Silicone This type of product could corrode Copper." Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 342 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 03:29 pm:    We are having a lunch and learn given by the Copper Development Association this Thursday. I guess I have have a trick question for them already. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 115 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 09:25 am:    Steven, it might be good that the question comes from a "disinterested third party." What my research has turned up so far are reports about formicary (ant's nest) corrosion originating from within the copper tubing. The chemical substance most frequently assocated with this type of corrosion is acetaldehyde, specifically acetate, its anionic component. Investigation into the sealant in the situation presented to me shows that acetaldehyde and formaldehyde are used in the manufacture of the sealant but those two compounds are not present to any great degree in the product itself. To reiterate, practically all the articles I have found so far implicate the substances being conducted within the tubing as contributing to the formicary corrosion, not necessarily anything on the exterior of the tubing which is in contact with it. A good example of such a report by Carrier is found here: http://www.hydro-temp.com/help/drawings/Formicary_Corrosion.pdf I am anticipating a letter from the sealant manufacturer (perhaps this week) with the results of their investigation of a similar problem they encountered but not exactly the same as was brought to my attention. I will let the forum know what I learn. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 254 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 09:29 am:    James, do we know if this sealant is a silicone, urethane, polyether, polysulfide, acrylic, latex or other? Thanks for posting this. Seems we have a mystery on our hands! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1486 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:08 am:    CSI2 to the rescue? ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:33 am:    Scooby Doo actually. Might as well try to have some fun in the process. Besides, weren't we here first? Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1487 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:58 am:    Yes, but this is CSI crime scene investigation, right? Hence, CSI2...solving the mystery! ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 386 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 12:54 pm:    Just curious. Did anyone ever hear anything more about this? Scott Piper (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - 01:06 pm:    ASHE (american society for healthcare engineers) is also seeking information about this problem so apparently it is not an isolated problem. ASHE believes (but is still trying to gather data) that water based acoustical sealants are the problem and silicone sealants may be the solution. Latest inquiry from ASHE was nov. 20, 2012. http://www.ashe.org/resources/asheinsider/2012/advocacy_121120.html Louis Medcalf, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: louis_medcalf Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2010 Posted on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 03:48 pm:    We received a photo from a contractor showing verdigris where the acoustical sealant identified to us as USG's product contacted copper pipe penetrating drywall. I enquired with USG some weeks ago, but have not heard from them except notification that they are studying the issue. The product has been on the market for decades without previous issues, so it's very much a mystery. I wonder if there was some contaminant on the copper that reacted to the sealant. Not water - put a drop of water on a penny and it will evaporate long before turning blue-green! I've temporarily modified our spec master to advise users to specify a competing product or use low-modulus single-part polyurethane on copper pipe. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 126 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 04:33 pm:    Louis, maybe your inquiry (being at least the second if mine was first) will stimulate a response from the manufacturer. To my knowledge, what hasn't happened with the instance I reported last May is any forensic follow up. IMO some of this corroded tubing, as well as a sample of the sealant used, needs to be taken to the lab for analysis. Surely some type of spectroscopy can show anomalies in the composition of the sealant and other tests can determine if the proper* copper tubing was used. This testing is unfortunately (or possibly fortuantely) something the owner and not the architect initiates. *While copper tubing of this type is almost pure copper there are trace amonts of lead, zinc, and sometimes beryllium used to form the various alloys. Whether proper proportions of these elements is critical to performance I do not know but I'm certain someone does or at least has an educated opinion about the subject. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 390 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 04:43 pm:    It's important to remember that copper will patina. We have no way of knowing what is causing the patina to form in the photos that were posted. If an acid or other chemical was used to 'clean' or otherwise treat the tubing, that may be what is causing the patina to form. It may have nothing to do with the sealant. Additionally, do we know for certain that the 'failure' is anything more than the patina forming? Do we know that the tubing has failed? Are there gases or liquids leaking? Are seals failing? Has the copper tubing corroded significantly or superficially? Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1587 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 04:50 pm:    Thanks, Ken, for a voice of reason - a skeptic's voice. You're right, and we do need to push USG (and maybe others) to complete their investigation and publish the results. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 127 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 06:17 pm:    Unfortunately, Ken, I do not have images to look at. I was not even told whether the tubing was leaking - an imporant distinction as you point out. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that what was reported as an area of corrosion differed in appearance markedly from the area around it. Like, say, it was greenish-black and cruddy looking when the rest of the tubing has a nice, smooth bronze-brown patina. The question needing an answer in the case I mentioned last spring is this: Is the sealant in contact with the tubing the direct cause of the unusual coloring and erosion of the tubing or is it simply holding moisture in contact with the outer surface of the tubing? Further, will this eventually result in a perforation? Finally, what is the soulution to the problem? This is why I think it would be in the manufacturer's interest to get samples into the lab for analysis and it may have already begun the process for all I know. BTW, the acoustical sealant cannot be omitted in this instance. Must a way be found to protect (isolate) the copper from the sealant? Since the product has a history of use with no previously reported problems (of which I am aware), is it possible that what was used on this particular project, and possibly some others, came from a 'bad batch' of sealant. From what I found last May formicary corrosion originating in the interior of tubing does eventually lead to pin-hole leaks in the tubing. The amount of time it takes for this to occur varies with the concentration of the corroding substances within the tubing. IRC this so-called corrosion was found in several places in this facility but not in other older buildings on the same campus. Well, I've written a lot and said not much so I'll "shut up" for now. Best wishes to all my 4specs colleagues for a great weekend and joyous celebrations of all types through the remainder of the year. James ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 470 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, March 15, 2013 - 11:21 pm:    Any news or updates? I'm concerned that the sealant manufacturer decided to pay to replace the piping just to keep this quiet but that no one really proved conclusively what the cause of the problem was. As far as I know, the product is still available for use with copper piping. E Jones Senior Member Username: ejonesspec Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2011 Posted on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 12:13 am:    I've heard of a project (not ours) that also had this problem. There was actual, significant corrosion, not just a patina. I don't know much more than that.