| Author |
Message |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 04:59 pm: |    |
HDI Railing Systems require registration to see specifications. Click on "CSI Specs", and a registration form appears; click cancel, and you get this:
Authorization Required
This server could not verify that you are authorized to access the document requested. Either you supplied the wrong credentials (e.g., bad password), or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.
Any others anyone cares to name? |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 334
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 05:23 pm: | |
I recall a major elevator manufacturer who, in addition to your registration information, also required all of the performance requirements (number of floors served, travel distance, machine type, and on, and o,n and on) before you could open the spec document.
When I find these requirements I find it nice to send them an email saying you passed on them because of the registration requirement and instead have specified X, Y and Z companies. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 05:37 pm: | |
Typically, I do send a similar email, but in this case, I have no choice...
Thus, the "Wall of Shame"
Care to actually name that elevator manufacturer? |
Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: redseca2
Post Number: 335
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 05:56 pm: | |
That was the big O.
That was some time ago, but I just went back to their website, and the first page of questions you still need to answer before you can see a specification asks for:
Building Name
City
State
Contact Name
Phone
E-mail
There are many pages after that first one. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 199
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 06:03 pm: | |
As we discussed on another thread, feel free to register using the following updated version:
Username: Username101 ('Username' has already been used on a number of websites)
Password: Password101 (some of these folks require a capital letter and at least one number)
Name: Me I Myself
Address: 1601 Pennsylvania Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20501
Phone: 800-555-1212
email address: birdcrazy411@gmail.com (some are also requiring an email address to send confirmations. In some cases, the user name is the email address).
Note: The password I set up for birdcrazy411@gmail.com on www.gmail.com is also Password101 in case you have to acknowledge receipt of an authorizing email from the manufacturer. |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 06:15 pm: | |
Ken, you're devious. I like it!
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1448
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 06:16 pm: | |
I tried that, and it still wouldn't allow me to get the specifications. So I used "contact us" and told them what I think of their website. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 495
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 06:48 pm: | |
My philosophy is not to specify them, if I can help it and to tell them so.
I've been telling a lot of my reps that if I have to register to access their website, I'm not going to specify them. I think they get a lot of that from the spec writers.
Maybe one of these days their marketing departments will get the idea, if they're still in business.
I got into it with a roofing mfgr. who gave me a very difficult time, and when they finally agreed to put it on a CD, I still needed a password to open it. then the rep got upset because I wouldn't put his contact info in the spec. - Duh!
I don't specify those guys any more.
I'm going to Construct in September and I plan on bringing this up with every rep I speak with. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 09:37 am: | |
Great idea, Richard. Maybe if we all did the same... |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 200
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 09:45 am: | |
Maybe we can generate an article in The Specifier, signed by several dozen spec writers from around the country, announcing our boycott of obtuse manufacturers who require that we jump through hoops just to be able to specify their products.
I like the idea of maintaing a list of the offenders.
Maybe we should talk with the SectionFormat Task Team about including an Article for banned manufacturers. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 10:07 am: | |
Here's part of the response I received:
My apologies, however, since HDI posts AutoCAD details and catalog sections on our site, and our designs are proprietary, we find it necessary to block users such as miscellaneous metals fabricators. Below is the login information for our web site www.hdirailings.com:
User name excellent
Password design
Both lower case letters.
Of course, when I downloaded the spec section, I could see that it is written in ersatz CSI/CSC format - sort of a blend but with incorrect outline format thrown in for good measure. I suggested they hire a spec writer to improve their specs. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 496
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:24 am: | |
Lynn - Yes - I think we need to get the message out to the manufacturers that they need to make their websites more accessible.
They could put the details in as pdf's, which I prefer since I don't have CAD on my computer.
Also, in reality, anyone can log on under an assumed idendity and get to the information, so what's the point of registering? |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:27 am: | |
"...anyone can log on under an assumed identity..." - that's pretty much what I told them. |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener
Post Number: 547
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:42 am: | |
I often find that clicking on an empty password box three times gets me in. |
Russ Hinkle, AIA, CDT, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: rhinkle
Post Number: 101
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:04 pm: | |
or click your heels together three times . . . .
Russ Hinkle |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:07 pm: | |
but only if you're wearing ruby slippers (but not in Mexico) and have defeated the wicked witch and the flying monkeys and have your little dog firmly under your arm... |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:15 am: | |
okay, I give. Why not in Mexico. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:38 am: | |
When my high-schoolers were preparing to take their Spanish class trip to Mexico, the teacher told the girls to not bring red shoes along because prostitutes in Mexico City wore red shoes. |
Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT
Senior Member
Username: rliebing
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 02-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 11:02 am: | |
Gee, doesn't a "pint of blood" or a "right arm" work any more? |
Brian E. Trimble, CDT
Senior Member
Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt
Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 12:19 pm: | |
Ah, come on guys. As speaking as a rep of sorts (trade association) we (a very broad "we") want to find out who might be contemplating the use of our products. While it is true that if the rep is good, he/she has been out among the specifiers finding this out on their own, but this is one more way to finding jobs to work on. I suppose it is a lazier way of getting contacts, but just another way of gathering the all important data. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 473
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 12:32 pm: | |
Brian
You are forgetting that your job is to respond to our needs. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 498
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 01:04 pm: | |
I have to agree with Mark. One of our "needs" is not to have to spend time registering for access to websites and remembering a whole bunch of usernames and passwords, that are usually forgotten by the next time we have to login.
I also have to note, that with the down economy, manufacturers are reducing or eliminating their product rep staff and are trying to make up for it by requiring us to register to access their websites. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 205
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 01:33 pm: | |
Well, Brian already does a great job responding to the industry, and I don't mind so much if a Trade Association wants to know who I am if they are giving free access to their information, like BIA's Technical Notes.
In the case of manufacturers, I don't appreciate having to fill out forms just to access product info that should already be posted and accessible. Jumping through hoops for the honor of being permitted to specify their products? No way.
Too many manufacturers have opted to eliminate architectural support. If they think they can force us to do their jobs for them, it's time for a change. I'm not here for their benefit. I believe in having good symbiotic relationships with proactive, knowledgeable reps, vendors, and technical support staff. I don't want to reward bad behavior, or behaviour as Paul Gerber might say. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 499
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 01:40 pm: | |
Well said Ken. I agree that Trade Associations are somewhat different than the manufacturers, who seem to be controlled by their marketing people. |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 11:23 am: | |
I actually don't mind putting in my name, email, and maybe phone, (only) into a form to get access to more in depth information. However, I do need to have unfettered access initially simply to know whether the product is worth digging into deeper. I understand manufacturers have a legitimate desire to know who has interest, and some of the good ones will actually have a rep contact me.
However, DON'T MAKE ME REGISTER WITH A USER NAME AND PASSWORD AS IF YOU'RE A D**N BANK! (I'm yelling in the hope that at least one or two manufacturers can hear me.) That is a completely pointless waste of my time. If a manufacturer wants to know about my project, let them call or email me. After all, I made the effort to find them, they can return the effort by contacting me. |
Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: rick_howard
Post Number: 262
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 12:52 pm: | |
I asked one company's rep about the need to create an account. He said that it permits them to place a cookie on my computer so that I don't need to register each time. Well, what if I use another computer next time (I work with two so I don't have to sit and wait while a macro is running), or if I have privacy set on my computer to delete cookies?
Attention product manufacturers: When I work on a section where I want to look at the information on a particular product to see if I feel it is equal to other listed products, I am likely doing this same kind of search on a dozen manufacturer's web sites each hour. I don't have the time to enter my bio for every product I want to look at for a project. If it's taking time from me, it's costing me money. I don't think I should be donating my precious time to save you some marketing dollars. That is not the way to treat me if you want me to feel positive about your company. Be warned! If I can't have free and unfettered access, I'll shop someplace else. And ponder this, you may discover you have an uphill battle to get approved as an equal after I decide not to put your name on the approved product list. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 206
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 01:52 pm: | |
Well said Richard.
Bottom line for me is that I'm already spending too much time away from my daughter. Every minute I waste with this BS steals time that I value and can never get back. That makes it personal.
Marketing Departments: You won't like me when I'm angry. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 02:42 pm: | |
Remember, originally I asked for names. Can we create a "dark" list? (I hesitate to say "black list", but...) It might get back to the manufacturers and it also might serve to warn each of us of future problems. Can we just share this factual information? |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 03:45 pm: | |
And that rep's completely wrong about cookies - they can be placed by any site, registration or not. |
Tom Gilmore, AIA, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: tgilmore
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 08:12 pm: | |
What about websites that expect you to sort through their products by product name rather than a generic description? It seems to be most common on sites that interior designers might use. Or are we supposed to know that Acme Dog's Choice carpet is 28 oz cut pile nylon? |
Justatim
Senior Member
Username: justatim
Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 07:31 am: | |
I generally ignore "websites that expect you to sort through their products by product name rather than a generic description," unless I have been informed of one of their products by name. It's the manufacturer's job to divulge what their products are. I name my children, but I also identify them as m/f persons. If I consider a pets to be "my children," I also identify them as animals. Otherwise, what good would our national census serve? |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 563
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 09:32 am: | |
I have suggested to many manufacturers that they provide a table, showing essential differences between their products. Coatings are a great example; even a generic description often isn't enough to tell the difference between several similar products. Rigid insulation and gypboard also come to mind. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 211
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:01 am: | |
Again, one of the benefits of having access to good representation, something too many manufacturers don't have.
Coatings are a big question mark, especially when looking at brand names. Resinous flooring is another. How am I supposed to know one trowel system vs another let alone trowel vs broadcast? Comparison charts within companies and between companies are really helpful. I specify around the folks who provide me with that information. Others I have to exclude since I don't know enough about them to use them.
I sure don't have time to register for websites just to find out that they don't even have this level of information.
Lynn, I like your idea but I don't know if it's fair to Colin to post this on the 4specs.com website. Then again, maybe we can help him research companies that need his help in learning how to approach the design community.
Perhaps we can also identify those companies that go above-and-beyond in providing access to their information.
Colin, your thoughts please? |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:05 am: | |
Ken, great idea...a "diamond" list and a "coal" list...with enough pressure from us and folks like us, those on the "coal" list could move to the "diamond" list... |
Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA
Senior Member
Username: don_harris
Post Number: 258
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:11 am: | |
Anyone run into the sites with a search box and you type in the product name that you know is correct and the search engine says "no results?" That is almost more infuriating than the registration request. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:15 am: | |
Oh yeah...even when you know a model number. I was talking to two reps yesterday about just that. They admitted that sometimes they can't find things on their own website! |
Colin Gilboy
Senior Member
Username: colin
Post Number: 300
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:45 am: | |
I do a monthly newsletter targeted to advertisers and building product manufacturers. I sometimes point users to the comments in the discussion forum. This topic is one I plan to use later this summer.
These newsletters go out to over 2,000 manufacturers. The focus is getting specified using the Internet - get found in the search engines, make it easy to use your website and provide the data the specifier needs to make informed decisions.
These newsletters go back over 10 years and most of them are still on target.
You can point reps to our Marketing 101 area on 4specs. I think of it as a university-level course in building product marketing.
http://www.4specs.com/marketing/
Colin Gilboy
Publisher, 4specs.com
435.654.5775 - Utah
800.369.8008 |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1463
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:10 am: | |
Colin, I send manufacturers there as often as I can. Thanks for providing that area! |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener
Post Number: 550
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 04:06 pm: | |
Requiring registration is far overshadowed by manufacturers providing only PDF files of their specifications. PDF files can be overcome and made into text files, with considerable effort.
After that, the next irritant is noncompliance with CSI SectionFormat and basic specification writing principles (Clear, Correct, Complete and Concise) and practices (proper use of descriptive, reference standard, proprietary (open/closed) and performance (i.e., design/build) methods of specifying.
Colin, I'd put the quality of manufacturers' specifications ahead of the registration issue. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 02:25 pm: | |
New one to add: Needing manufacturers of epoxy resin laboratory countertops who could match one manufacturer's color (charcoal) chosen by the Architect, I started checking. There aren't many, but on the Prime Industries website, when I clicked on the "color" tab, the message came up that I was not authorized to see that page. So I did my typical message under the "contact us" tab - and left them in the specification, requiring submittals for a substitution for other manufacturers, of which Prime Industries was one.
This morning I received a phone call from Prime Industries, asking if I meant what I had written in the email (basically that I would use a competitor and that requiring registration was frustrating my attempt to get information). I said yes; the caller then asked if I remembered what I had written. I again said yes. Then he went into a tirade stating that they have always had problems with Flad - the call ended when I hung up after the words "you're just an arrogant bi*ch" were uttered by the caller.
I removed them from the specification. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 605
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 02:35 pm: | |
Any manufacturer who responds in an inappropriate and unprofessional manner should get removed from our specifications! |
Scott Mize
Senior Member
Username: scott_mize_ccs_csi
Post Number: 76
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 03:13 pm: | |
<facepalm>
Definitely on the "coal" list. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 601
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 03:20 pm: | |
This company spokesman is out of control. I had to try my hand. I sent the following e-mail:
It is unfortunate that Prime Industries, Inc. website requires users to create an account to progress past the home page. This requirement causes an immediate strikethrough and removal of your company’s products from our master specifications. Perhaps one day you will realize that specifiers avoid such websites like the plague, hence your products will never see the light of day in Callison’s specifications. This is an arrogant and narrow minded requirement by Prime Industries. Your loss. Not ours.
He called me immediately to tell me in no uncertain terms to f**k off. Apparently we architects are arrogant. I wanted to tell him I am not an architect but it seemed useless.
Wayne the arrogant b*****d. I am in good company. |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 613
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 03:29 pm: | |
Oooo... maybe if three people did it, can you imagine three people calling up? Maybe they would think it's a movement (even if no bars of "Alice's Restaurant" were involved). And folks? that's just what it is. A movement to strike Prime Industries from our specs.
(Oh, and you could play a couple of bars of "Alice's Restaurant" in three-part harmony, just for good measure.) |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 602
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 03:38 pm: | |
Please send e-mails to 'sales@piilab.com' to complain about the requirment to create an account to get past the home page.
I have no objection to registering with my e-mail address but but my colleagues and I draw the line at passwords.
Keep the e-mails coming.
AA&A
(Arrogant Architects & Associates) |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 681
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 03:57 pm: | |
Now that I am on the manufacturing side of things, thanks for sharing these great tips for how to deal with you arrogant architects. I had no idea how to act...
(I'm joining Peter on the Group W bench)
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 606
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 05:05 pm: | |
But, George, we know you won't treat Lynn & Wayne that way.
Another thought on websites. I was trying to find some info on a manufacturer's website and they were apparently have some difficulties and when I spoke with my local rep. even he had trouble.
So where are the hard copy binders when websites go down and you need information fast?
BTW it was IRST (Sorry George)- but I was at least able to get to my local rep. and he was very apologetic. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 682
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 06:14 pm: | |
Why any person who represents a manufacturer would purposefully alienate you toward their company is beyond me. Lynn’s story is so ludicrous that my first response, as it often is in my posts, tended toward sarcasm. But, it’s probably time to get serious on the subject at hand.
In three years with this company, I have been favorably impressed with the attitudes of colleagues and managers towards specifiers and architects. We are not immune to mistakes, but generally things can get worked out favorably, as I hope it was in your case, Richard. IR would love to say we are the exception, but I am sure that we are typical in the industry. In fact, the reason this story about Prime Industries is noteworthy is that it is way over the top and so out of the ordinary.
I too have had to apologize for our website - it's oftentimes the nature of the corporate beast that improvements are difficult to effect. When putting together a corporate website, there is also a tension between the easy to find hard data that a specifier needs and the glitzy splash that marking types think architects want to see. And, of course, the bigger the beast and the more moving parts (think door hardware), the slower it is and harder it is to respond. But I do know there are on-going efforts to improve it toward a format more usable for architects and specifiers.
Now, to violate Colin’s edict against “no product promotion here”, I hope all of you who are at Construct in a few weeks will visit the IR booth, certainly to see the new products, but more importantly to express your concerns and constructive criticisms. It’s an opportunity to have your voices heard by the right people.
And as always, if any arrogant architects (or even arrogant non-architects, Wayne) who frequent this forum ever have issues with my company, please feel free to email or call me. I don’t guarantee immediate results, but I will try to get you the answers, or to connect you with the right people who can. And I won’t call you names (unless, of course, you like that sort of thing)
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 607
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 06:46 pm: | |
George, I've had a long and great relationship with IR/ST dating back to my time on the East Coast and still do.
The great thing was that even though their website was down, I was still able to get to a real person through my local contacts.
Marketing people (not IRST) in our world of specifying need to understand that we aren't looking for the glitz, but rather the technical information and our time is too valuable to be wasting it on registering for websites.
Thank you for your input. |
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe
Post Number: 682
Registered: 01-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 09:38 pm: | |
My experience has been that hardware reps, as a group, are more knowledgeable about their products, more willing to help solve problems, and more apt to give honest evaluations of their and their competitor's product, than any other group. They were among my first go-to guys when I started writing specs, and they have rarely let me down. I'm still working with one I met nearly thirty years ago, when I first moved to the dark side. Perhaps it's the nature of their products, which, with all their combinations and permutations, demand complete attention and devotion.
That does not mean they're perfect, or that other individual reps are not as good, or better. I have a nice list of go-to guys for most products, and when I don't have one, or the ones I have are out, I go directly to the CSI member database. |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 09:07 am: | |
I am sympathetic to the comments posted here regarding registration on manufacturer websites. When we are really flying, it seems like gratuitous gatekeeping when we encounter a registration form.
But, having worked for product manufacturers I am also aware of the significant investment they make in their technical documents. Depending on the company and the competitors they interact with, some are particular about how their information is handled once that investment is made. When asked, I advise manufacturers that an open-door policy is better received by the specifiers than a policy of having to pass through gates to get to the information. But, ultimately it is determined by their corporate communication policies.
And there is no excuse for bad behavior such as Lynn described above.
That stated, I decided to try registering on the Prime Industries website. Eleven minutes elapsed from the time I began filling out the form to the time I received an e-mail approving full access to their site. Is that really such a big deal?
That's about one-third of the time I have spent this morning reading the above posts and writing this.
Just saying. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 603
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 10:12 am: | |
With Prime Industries, this has gone way beyond gratuitous gatekeeping. The original search was for colors.
It is the BAD behavior that needs to be checked. I wrote a similar e-mail to Lynn's expressing my concerns regarding the "gratuitous gatekeeping". The person responsible for responding to e-mails to sales at Prime Metals told me I was arrogant and to f**k off then hung up the phone. Like, how could I be so stupid.
Good for you if you are willing to waste eleven minutes to register (if only to look at colors). All 5 specifiers at Callison have better things to do. We detour to a user friendly websites. We are unanimous on this topic. However, we at Callison would appreciate a reasonable explanation for the gatekeeping policy verusus "arrogant b***h and f**k off" responses.
Every day I hear something new after 46 years, 3 months in the profession. Truth is stranger than fiction. |
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding
Post Number: 683
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 11:26 am: | |
I was remiss before in not plugging the certification programs as a fix for those manufacturers and product reps who want to up their game with architects and specifiers (although the company currently being discussed is probably beyond hope).
I know this is preaching to the already-certified choir, but when you do encounter a manufacturer who is willing and eager to improve, please remember to mention CDT and CCPR.
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 11:52 am: | |
Well, Wayne, I sure hope you have a better afternoon than you seem to be having now.
While I was waiting, I responded to e-mails and proofed a spec section. Wasn't holding my breath or twiddling my thumbs.
And, I certainly don't think bad behavior like Lynn described is excusable. But developing s**t lists can lead to unnecessary trouble.
Anyway, peace, fellow specifier. |
Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS LEED-AP
Senior Member
Username: rick_howard
Post Number: 273
Registered: 07-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:03 pm: | |
Behavior described above should be reported to higher ups in the organization. The IL SoS lists Scott W. Fuesz as company founder, President and Statutory Agent. I doubt if he wants a national sales force known throughout the industry as short-tempered potty mouths. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 604
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:10 pm: | |
David,
I don't have a shit list.
It is still moring in the PNW and is it going fine. Doughnut day for the Sept. birthday boys and girls. I had a Texas chocolate long john
As I said, registration is not an issue. Verbal abuse is.
While I am wating, I write 3 specs, learn Swahili, rotate the tires and make/bake a pizza. If time still permits I go online to ESPN to see what ARod is up to. When hockey season starts I will focus on the NHL and the disciplnary committee.
My disciponary committee is taking action against verbal abuse. Click.
That is all I have to say about that. |
David J. Wyatt, CDT
Senior Member
Username: david_j_wyatt_cdt
Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2011
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:13 pm: | |
Thanks, Wayne. Have a great weekend. Hope to meet up with you some time. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 605
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:19 pm: | |
I'll be in the dark alley wearing black. |
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby
Post Number: 206
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:21 pm: | |
Wayne;
OK, I have to ask: what is a "Texas chocolate long john"? I know what a "chocolate long john" is, but what does the "Texas" add?
And now I want to buy a dozen crullers on the way home. ;-( |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 109
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 02:02 pm: | |
I had a different type of problem recently. The website did not require registration, but they placed the guide specifications in what I considered a very peculiar place. After I sent an email complaining to them that they did not have guide specs, I received a call that if I clicked on the appropriate heading at the top of the webpage, I would readily find the guide specs. Of the 7 or 8 headings at the top of the page, the correct one to hit to find specs was "Media Library" - who would of thought to look there? |
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan
Post Number: 629
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 12:10 pm: | |
Just tried to get information from HDI Railing Systems (see Lynn's original post). You can't register online, you have to call and give your information to a person. The person I talked with told me that I was the only person irritated by this procedure.
I am flabergasted. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 636
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 01:56 pm: | |
Well, so much for specifying HDI Railings Systems |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 02:09 pm: | |
I have to wonder why some manufacturers think their information is so amazing, proprietary, different, innovative, astounding, or unique that they must protect it against the likes of us (or anyone else). They seemingly expect the industry to simply accept their word that their product is perfect for all situations and conditions; we are not to question! (at least without the proper authorization from the exalted leader - or something like that).
I have to wonder what part of this industry in today's world do they not understand? |
Brian E. Trimble, CDT
Senior Member
Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt
Post Number: 68
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 02:21 pm: | |
You have to get in the head of a manufacturer to understand this. They need leads to sell their product. If someone is interested in their products they want to be able to give them personalized attention. Getting a specifier's contact information allows them to contact the person to see if they need more information. So I doubt that manufacturers think their literature is the next Shakespearean novel, its just that want to be able to sell their product.
Just sayin......  |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1713
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2013 - 03:19 pm: | |
I think we all agree that registration - giving one's name and contact information - is not a problem. It's the password thing, or the not being able to register on-line thing, or the wait for authorization which sometimes can be up to 48 hours; that's the part I don't get. |
Tom Gilmore, AIA, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: tgilmore
Post Number: 39
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 08:12 am: | |
Brian, all my contact info is in my email signiture. And if i can just email a manufacturer, I'll have a record of my question or request. |
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg
Post Number: 633
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 10:37 am: | |
I'm all for establishing symbiotic relationships with manufacturers and reps. I'm not in favor of being held hostage by a company that thinks it's doing me a favor by allowing me access to their technical information.
Having reps who get their CDT's or CCPR's and who are involved in local CSI chapters is the cost of doing business. If the product is predominantly for interiors, being active with the local interiors groups is fine. Thinking you can just get my contact info because my designer wants to use your product and then calling me repeatedly to ask what the status is of a project, who to call, etc. instead of doing your job isn't acceptable. I don't have time to coddle manufacturers who are too cheap to properly represent their own product to the industry. I assure you that their making more money than I am. Frankly it seems that anyone who wants to take 10 minutes can look in the right place and get a list of specifiers for any city, town, state or location. If they're not participating in the betterment of the industry, I have no use for them. |
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 1714
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 10:44 am: | |
Amen, brother! (Waving hands and arms in the air, jumping up to shout AMEN!) |
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