Submittals

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Author Message Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 797 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:08 pm:    I am sure this has been discussed before, but I'm asking again, how does a specwriter prevent subcontractors from copying (his/her)specifications as the basis for their submittals - I know this is just plain stupid, but its being done in South Florida. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1313 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:16 pm:    In specs-- "A. Original drawings, prepared by Contractor, subcontractor, supplier, or distributor, which illustrates some portion of the work, showing fabrication, layout, setting, and erection details for scope of work indicated in the contract documents." or send them back as non-responsive [small war may ensue] Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 521 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:17 pm:    Say it can't be done in 013300; and say such submittals will be returned without review. That is about all the spec writer can do unless the spec writer is also performing CA. State in 013300 the architect will provide specific limited CAD files for a fee and have submitter sign an indemnity form included in the project manual. That is what my specs say if not a BIM project. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:17 pm:    I'm sure it's fairly evident that your spec has been "cloned". I would just put something in the specs, probably in the Division 01 section for Submittals, telling them that copying the design professional's specs is not permitted, the same as we generally do when it comes to contractor's using the design professional's drawings. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 494 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:25 pm:    I'm sure it's fairly evident that your spec has been "cloned". I would just put something in the specs, probably in the Division 01 section for Submittals, telling them that copying the design professional's specs is not permitted, the same as we generally do when it comes to contractor's using the design professional's drawings. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 798 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:39 pm:    The Architect is allowing the GC a digital copy of the drawings with acceptance of the Architect's Digital Release Form. We include in our agreement with the architect that specifications can not be copied for any purpose and we include same in Div 1, but still we find this practice being done. Copywriting is not feasible because our specs are a composite of many other specifications, some language from paid services like Masterspec, some from manufacturers, some from other specwriters. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1445 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 03:00 pm:    It's my understanding (and I certainly could be wrong) that the copyright applied to the set of specifications for a particular project, not each individual section within the Project Manual. If that is the case, then you copyright the whole entity just by putting that little symbol - © - on the cover. In a previous place of employment, that's what we did, and we used the same sort of conglomeration of sections that you do. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 799 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 03:12 pm:    That is a good point Lynn, I would like to hear from my other fellow specwriters before I respond to my client. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 546 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:37 am:    I write under a Part 1 article in product sections the required stuff that shall be submitted, like product data, and then in Division 1 (Section 013300 - Submittal Procedures) I define what "product data" means. ("Product Data: Standard published information ("catalog cuts") and specially prepared data for the Work of the Contract, including standard illustrations, schedules, brochures, diagrams, performance charts, instructions and other information to illustrate a portion of the Work.") How do you stop a subcontractor from doing something wrong. YOU DON'T. Don't do the General Contractor's job. Don't review non-conforming submittals. Send them back noted "Unreviewed" and let the General Contractor ... who is supposed to review and certify the submittals before they are submitted to the Architect (spec writer) ... know that the project is being delayed by these sort of submittals. Yeah, assertiveness skills are required. Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 445 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:38 am:    x2 to everything John said. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 800 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 12:15 pm:    Unfortunately I am seldom involved in submittal review, contractually the architect is permitted to contact us regarding specification issues, so we don't have the ability to object to non conforming submittals. John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 548 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:00 pm:    Several years ago, I attended an AIA convention and a seminar on copywriting. The discussion, of course, was totally centered on drawings. Overcoming my shyness and fear of distain, I asked the attorneys presenting the program,what about copyrighting specifications? The audience reaction was if I had farted. I said "specifications" in an AIA setting! The response of the presenter was that specifications could not be copyrighted because "they are derivative works." I'm not sure I came away with a full understanding of that, just that specs could not be copyrighted. I sort of understand that we cut-and-paste text from various sources and perform technical writing to tie it all together to suit the requirements of a specific project. Ultimately, it comes down to who owns the documents and what does that party allow/prohibit contractually in their agreements with other parties. For this discussion of copyright to go further, I think we need legal counsel. Gee, it might be a worthwhile topic for an education session at a "Construct 201#" show. Even product manufacturers would/should be interested, as well as spek riters. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 801 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:22 pm:    Thanks for your response Johm, so for the time being we need to hear from a lawyer frequenting this board, any Lawyers out there? I think its time to engage the Ron button? Or perhaps the William button? Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 469 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 05:15 pm:    While you cannot copyright a list of phone numbers you can copyright the particular pages with their unique formatting that contain the list of phone numbers. This would suggest that specifications can be copyrighted. I have heard it suggested that once the specifications aremade availible to bidders that the language used is in the public domain and can be copied. Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 455 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 05:23 pm:    why bother - do you (or I) really write anything so unique - so special - that it's going to be copied? how many of you write your specs without any national generic master? Of that language how much (or arrangement)of it is worthy of copyright? not bloody much. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 560 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 02:55 pm:    Same with drawings; other than the overall image, how many things are unique? How many glass boxes look the same? Architecture wouldn't survive without plagiarism. ;-) In theory, given the same starting point and adherence to the MOP, you would expect similar results from all specifiers. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1453 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 03:00 pm:    From the Specifier: http://www.csinet.org/Specifier/Construction-Specifier-Archives-QT/1999/June-1999/Copyright-and-Copyca.txt Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 393 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 03:42 pm:    @Jerome: What is your concern? Is it that the subs are lazy and not doing due diligence, or is it that they are using the documents without your permission? Are they using them for submittals on jobs that include your specs, or are they taking them and using them for submittals on other projects? The Copyright (c) mark is not required - as soon as an "original work" is created, it is copyrighted. The (c) mark doesn't hurt though. The arguement will arise as to whether a Project Manual is an "original work". Most of it, as mentioned, is pieced together from other documents (masters, manufacturer's data etc). There is nothing "unique" about the way the specs are formatted (assuming they follow Masterformat and Pageformat etc). Then, there is the fair use exception to copyrighted items. The subs will argue that they are only using a small portion (one or two sections) relative to the entire Project Manual and they are not using the sections for commercial gain. Personally, I think the copyright argument is a tough one when discussing individual sections. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 802 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 05:14 pm:    I have "seen" subcontractors stapling pages of my specifications to their submittals as part of the submittal; I have seen exact paragraphs from the specifications pasted to the submittals and submitted as a shop drawing signed and sealed by an engineer - on some jobs the architects refuse to accept the submittal, yet eventually it gets through, usually due to carelessness. I have also had occassion where the specs on one project wind up being used on a completely different project, with our company name still on the cover sheet - unbelievable. Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 394 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 08:00 pm:    the use of the language on submittals by subs is not likely copyright infringement. It is bad business practice and not in accord w/ the contract documents. The use of an entire project manual for another project is arguable as copyright infringement, but it would be a tough arguement since information is not able to be copyrighted. It is the unique arrangement of that information that one can copyright and, as mentioned, our arrangement of specifications is not unique. That's my non-legal opinion, or course. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1454 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 09:18 am:    If you read the article at the link I posted (which is by a lawyer), you'll see that it is original material that can be copyrighted. So, if you use a "canned" master, but add something original (which we've all done), that part can be copyrighted. (If I'm reading the article correctly)