Punctuation

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Author Message Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 04:10 pm:    How important is it to have a period at the end of a sentance when there is nothing following it? James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 103 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 04:15 pm:    How important is it to have a question mark at the end of a sentence when there is no answer [big grin] Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 435 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 04:35 pm:    You can replace any question mark with a glottal stop (voiceless glottal plosive). As the linguistic symbol for glottal stops is not often found in symbol sets (it’s a question mark without the dot underneath), it can be substituted with one of the few US English words that is, in essence, nothing but a glottal stop. “uh-oh!” While I'm being linguistically obtuse...If you speak with a cockney accent, the glottal stop is also found in the middle of the word "butter" substituting for the two t's. Of course in the good old USA we don't pronounce the t's either; we use d's and often say budder. - Everyone seems to agree on the schwa however. What do you think of that uh-oh! Have I over stated my case uh-oh! Where will this silliness end uh-oh! anon (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 04:59 pm:    I like D'Oh! bedder. Gerard Sanchis Senior Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 05:47 pm:    Hell, why stop at punctuation let's get rid of paragraph spacing and hierarchy and give the contractor something that looks like this: Prior to the start of fabrication meet at the fabricator's plant to review methods and sequence of fabrication, special details and conditions, standard of workmanship, testing and quality control requirements, and other pertinent topics related to the fabrication of the assemblies Preinstallation Meetings Prior to the start of the Work, meet at the Project site with the same participants as the preliminary meeting to review material selections, availability of materials, personnel, equipment, and facilities needed to make progress and avoid delays, methods and sequence of installation, structural load limitations, special details and conditions, standard of workmanship, quality control requirements, testing, inspecting, and certifying procedures, job organization, coordination with other trades, and other pertinent topics related to the Work Coordination Drawings Prepare coordination drawings where work of other Sections is integrated in the work of this Section for efficient installation of different components, and when coordination is required for installation of products and materials fabricated by separate entities in the work of this Section indicate relationship of components shown on separate Shop drawings indicate required installation sequences refer to Divisions 22, 23 and 26 for specific coordination drawing requirements for mechanical and electrical installations notify concerned trades of items required to be incorporated into work of separate Sections Certain components specified in this Section include items closely integrated with doors and frames, glazing components specified in other Section that require close coordination with such allied trades Be responsible for coordination with these other trades to ensure correct installation procedures and results coordinate and cooperate with adjacent cladding systems subcontractors by installing closures and trim supplied by work of other Sections and installed directly into the glazed assemblies verify actual locations of embeds and structural supports by field measurements before fabrication and indicate measurements on Shop Drawings Prior to start of Shop Drawings, coordinate tolerances of work of other trades that may affect the work of this Section the Design Engineer shall be responsible for design of the work of this Section to meet or exceed the following structural and weather resistance criteria, as demonstrated by engineering calculations and on-site testing the Design Engineer shall determine material size, yield strength, gage (thickness) and joint spacing sizes indicated and specified are minimums acceptable to the TJPA Representative and shall not be reduced regardless of the Contractor’s engineering design requirements specified herein shall be analytically and mathematically proven, except for those specified to be proven exclusively by physical testing methods calculations and related data and their application in engineering, fabrication, assembly and installation shall be the responsibility of the Design Engineer Perform these functions using a recognized 3-dimensional finite element program using geometric and material non linear analysis Design Engineer shall submit proposed finite element software for ****** approval geometric non-linear analysis is required for evaluation of all structural systems material non-linear dynamic time step analysis is required for evaluation of framing under blast loading Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 436 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 05:50 pm:    why stop there - go ee cummings and remove all those capitals. Capitlulate! Heads will roll! Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 478 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 06:30 pm:    Since no one apparently took me seriously - that's okay, I think I got my answer. Thanks to all for the entertaining responses - they were worth the question. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 08:28 pm:    M AGRIPPA L FCOS TERTIVM FECIT Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 160 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 09:11 am:    Richard, Can you imagine this group not taking punctuation seriously? Shocking! My extensive non-legal experience leads me to believe the following: The purpose of a period at the end of a sentence is to indicate the end of a sentence. No additional words were accidentally left off because of widow/orphan or computer elf issues. It's like using "end of section" at the end of the section, and not leaving the reader to wonder if that half a blank page means we're done. - Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 529 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 09:45 am:    That puts an end to it. Seriously, that's good logic. I use periods at the end of sentences and sentence fragments, with an exception or two, such as section and other titles, the ends of the lines of a mailing address, and drawing notes. James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 104 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 10:19 am:    Now I think I understand the original question. I have also questioned whether a period should be placed at the end of a specification "paragraph" or "subparagraph" if that string of words is NOT, in fact, a sentence. I firmly believe every sentence must have at least a subject and a verb. Richard, I did not intend to diminish your earnest interrogative but it did generate some amusing responses. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 10:30 am:    I'm with Lisa and Sheldon on this. Unlike some people, I use periods at the end of text messages, in addition to everywhere else Sheldon uses them. My husband once sent me a text message that said, "I'm going to meet w" (no period) and I thought it was an unfinished message that he'd sent me accidentally. Later he told me he'd met George W. Bush. When I was surprised, he told me he'd texted me to tell me before he met him. I told him there was no capitalization, no period, and that I thought he'd sent me an unfinished text message. (I'm pretty good at extracting intent from people's garbled messages, but this one got by me.) Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1287 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 11:00 am:    If asked why a period should be used, my 4-year old grandaughter would answer, quite matter of factly-- BECAUSE! Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 508 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 11:02 am:    Lets go back to the days of telegraph messages stop Use the word stop to show the end of sentences stop I agree with Lisa and Sheldon stop I use stop after all paragraphs and subparagraphs stop I do not use stops in tables stop Thats all I have to say about that stop I will not be back stop William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 844 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 11:06 am:    I use periods at the end of sentences, as well as fragments if the fragment is on a line by itself. In outline formatting, it is not incorrect to put a period at the end of each line of a list as in the example... 1. This is a list: a. Item 1. b. Item 2. c. Item 3. Which I find looks a lot better than... 1. This is a list: a. Item 1, b. Item 2, c. Item 3. or... 1. This is a list: a. Item 1; b. Item 2; c. Item 3. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Robin E. Snyder Senior Member Username: robin Post Number: 385 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:01 pm:    Richard: It's level importance varies depending on the potential for misinterpretation. Generally, punctuation, when used correctly, serves a purpose. I have missed a period as a typo now and then. In William's example above, it may not be clear if the list is "and" or "or". Is it (1) or (2) or (3) or (1) and (2) and (3)? Example One implies the 3 items are individual, so any one of them might suffice, whereas lists 2 and 3 imply "and". The correct way is actually, "this is a list: Item 1; and Item 2; and Item 3 if all 3 are required. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:10 pm:    I think I've got my answer. I'll use periods when I remember to hit the key on my computer. Thanks to all - both the serious and not so serious, but entertaining. Justatim Senior Member Username: justatim Post Number: 26 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:27 pm:    Digressing, what do you think of the dominant practice now of having a single space after the period between sentences. This is in liwu of the traditional two spaces between sentences. Personally, I favor two spaces to make the period (our least conspiculus punctuation mark) more visible and to differentiate it from the period on abbreviations. Liz O'Sullivan Senior Member Username: liz_osullivan Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2011 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:32 pm:    I strongly prefer 2 spaces. I put 2 spaces in, even if I have to go back and edit something (like my blog) and add spaces if the second spaces got eliminated in a translation from Word to the blog. I only use one space on Twitter though! Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 437 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:39 pm:    Liz and company I disagree. the two space thing was created for monospaced type (from a typewriter) once we got computers and REAL type faces this was no longer needed and I feel should be discouraged. See the book the "The Mac is Not a Typewriter" published way back in 1991 M Colin Gilboy Senior Member Username: colin Post Number: 289 Registered: 09-2005 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 01:47 pm:    On web pages, html treats 2 spaces in a row as one. When you want 2 spaces for visual effects you need to use a no-breaking space -   Colin Gilboy Publisher, 4specs.com 435.654.5775 - Utah 800.369.8008 Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 441 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 02:13 pm:    I do not believe that the conclusion that we need only one space follows from the fact that we now have proportional text. I find that without the extra space it is more difficult to differentiate the end of the sentence. Let us see experimental proof and not a restatement of this new politically correct orthodoxy. Why should HTML impose this criteria? Marc C Chavez Senior Member Username: mchavez Post Number: 438 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 02:37 pm:    Orthodoxy? Apple? you must be kidding! Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 442 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 03:08 pm:    Yes Apple promotes its own orthodoxy. If you want to find the truth you need to step beyond all orthodoxies and dogma. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 03:42 pm:    Like dashes and hyphens, there is a difference in typography between an "en space" used between words and an "em space" used to follow colons, periods, exclaimation points, and question marks. An "en space" (if I remember correctly) is the width of the character "n" while an "em space" is the width of an "m". On the old monospace typewriters, "n" and "m" were the same width so the convention developed of using two spaces (I will not disclose when I took typing, but the school was not air conditioned). I always use the two-space convention, but if you look very carefully at a Word document, I think that a "space" separating words (and following commas and semicolons) will not be quite as wide as the "space" following a period, colon, etc. Word "knows" stuff and what you really want... Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1370 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 04:02 pm:    I guess there's a reason to capitalize "Word"...Word knows all, sees all and understands all. No wonder it annoys me. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 530 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - 10:13 pm:    I learned to type in the Army, where I was told to use two spaces. After joining the word processing world , circa 1983, I read the pros and cons, and changed to a single space. Incidentally, my father, who also bought a computer about the same time, told me he was taught in high school to use only one space after punctuation. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 138 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 - 09:10 am:    Steven, the Romans used 'funny' numbers too (ever try multiplying Roman numerals?)! I don't think we can trust their use (or non-use) of punctuation, especially when carved in stone (or was it concrete?). G. Wade Bevier, CCS, LEED-AP BD+C, CSI, SCIPa, USGBC Senior Member Username: wbevier Post Number: 32 Registered: 07-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 11, 2012 - 09:12 am:    I use a single space after the period mostly because I am creating a digital file and even a "space" is a bit of information and over the course of a multi-file, large document just adds "glut" to the file being created and whatever program or platform being use still has to process this information. As we move to the digital delivery of project documents (BIM)the more accurate the use of the tool will lead to a "potentially" better end result. IMHO Editor (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 02:51 pm:    The Chicago Manual of Style, the AP Stylebook, and the Modern Language Association all recommend one space after a period. You can choose to ignore those guidelines if you want, but "two spacers" out there should know that you're in the minority. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 983 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 04:28 pm:    I'm a "two spacer"--always have been and always will be. I just can't reprogram myself (I even put two spaces in my posts only to have the "system" remove them). Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 05:35 pm:    I've been two-stepping, er, too-spacey, er, two-spacing since 9th grade summer school typing class in 1970. Word has been trying to break me of the habit but it never felt right so I kept with the tradition. If it ain't broke, why fix it? I haven't seen any major catastrophes as a result, not even a single RFI or change order. Two-Spacer Too (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 06:08 pm:    two-spacer here. Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 179 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 06:28 pm:    Two-spacer here that doesn't intend to change because I believe it is easier to read. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 445 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 09:50 pm:    Another two-spacer who finds it easier to read. As I stated before I would like to see experimental proof. Mark Gilligan SE, Senior Member Username: mark_gilligan Post Number: 446 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 10:03 pm:    Another two-spacer who finds it easier to read. As I stated before I would like to see experimental proof. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 531 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 12:15 am:    Go to your library and pick out half a dozen books. Open them, and look at the spaces between words and after periods. With the exception of very short lines of justified text, where the change in spacing to align the ends of each line is obvious, you likely will find the space after a period is the same space as that between words, i.e., there is one space, not two. Look at the text in this thread. The space after each period is the same as that between words, i.e., one space. In either case, do you have difficulty reading the text? Can you not tell where one sentence ends and the next begins? In reading all the books you have read, did it ever occur to you that there is only one space after a period? Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 411 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 09:31 am:    One space or two spaces? Are we really expending all this time and effort on trivia? It reminds me of the following story. A little boy was playing on the beach when a big wave came in and washed him away. The lifeguard jumped into the water and brought the boy back to his mother, safe and sound. The mother fixed a steely glare on the lifeguard and said, "He was wearing a hat." Let's focus on what really matters. D. Marshall Fryer, CSI, CCS, CCCA, Assoc. AIA Senior Member Username: dmfryer Post Number: 77 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 09:48 am:    On a related topic: Is anal-retentive spelled with a hyphen? James M. Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: jsandoz Post Number: 105 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 10:01 am:    So, Dave, are you saying we should be debating the proper use of colons and semicolons instead? ;-) Participants in 4specs forum are all intelligent and detail-orinented people. That has a lot to do with what makes us successful in our work. Sometimes though it leads us on a walk down Minutia (or is it Minutiae?) Lane. I'm leaving the office at noon today to drive to Austin and attend my neice's wedding. I remember the day she was born a quarter century ago like it was yesterday. Fortunately, even for us triva mavens, life has a way of gently (sometimes not so gently) taking us by the shoulder and turning us toward those things that are important. My weekend looks to be one filled with joy and celebration. May you all have a pleasant weekend as well. Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP Senior Member Username: specman Post Number: 984 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 10:29 am:    Whether its more readable or not I don't care. It's just programmed into me. Maybe when I get a virus next time I'll upgrade myself to Ron Geren 2.0. However, that may not work since the hardware is old and has limited RAM and processing speed. Besides, I may not be around much longer...I think my wife has been eyeing the Apples a little too closely lately... :-) Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP www.specsandcodes.com Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1371 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 10:36 am:    James - Have a joyful time! Thanks for the smile as I think of your family's celebration... ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 146 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 11:28 am:    Ron, please do not re-boot. My doctor tried doing that to me a few years back and I almost didn't make it out of the hospital under my own power. James, thanks for the perspective and Mazel Tov to your family. Nothing like a joyful occasion to remind us what really matters. We'll be living vicariously through you. Richard Baxter, AIA, CSI Senior Member Username: rbaxter Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 11:29 am:    The grammar police can make me pronounce the vowels in "though" and "thought" differantly and make me spell them each with three completely unnecessaru letters--but they can't take away my extra space after a period. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1372 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 11:40 am:    We all know, however, that punctuation can save lives. I used an example of how in a recent presentation: (statement one) "lets eat grandma" and (statement two) "Let's eat, Grandma" illustrated the point quite well. (especially for those of us who are grandmas) Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 320 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 12:36 pm:    One learns again to appreciate punctuation when trying to decide which (wonderful, fabulous) sandwich to buy for lunch at a local deli that presents their offerings as follows (verbatim copy and paste): Sandwich #1 pastrami corned beef and brisket muenster cheese Board sauce brown mustard pickles sweet french Sandwich #2 corned beef pastrami kosher salami muenster cheese house slaw house 1000 island sweet french Sandwich #3 house brisket cheddar cheese house slaw sport peppers pickles pickled red onion Board sauce sweet french I can never figure out if "sport" belongs to the preceding "house slaw" or the following "peppers". Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI Senior Member Username: dwhurttgam Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 10:02 am:    To digress further - Along with misplaced or omitted punctuation, do we need bother to use "spell check' or will our specs still be understood if we misspell a few words? Arocdnicg to rsceearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pcale. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit pobelrm. Tihs is buseace the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 10:29 am:    I would love to see that argument in court about a paragraph in the specifications. Acording to Noam Chomsky, language is composed of phonemes (words, sort of), grammar (arrangement of words), syntax (rules about using grammar), all of which contribute to meaning. Meaning is also derived from inflection and context. In the written word, we have basically the same hierarchy although inflection is absent. Punctuation takes the place of inflection in most, but not necessarily all, cases. In the orignial question, the meaning of "items in a list" is clear without punctuation at the end of each item. I do confess to being partial to putting a period at the end of each entry, I must concede that it is not really necessary. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 617 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 03:07 pm:    Victor Borge, Phonetic Punctuation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4qii8S3gw George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 532 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 03:28 pm:    Thanks for reminding me, George! I remember LMAO when I was a young lad, listening to him on my Mom's 78 RPM records. Another one I remember is inflationary language. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1234 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 05:46 pm:    Marc is right on this one. see http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html it was a typographical necessity before proportional spacing, and is now recommended only for use with non-proportional typefaces (like: Courier). Since we don't use courier very often anymore, we should probably update our punctuation as well. as for Dale's comment about misspellings: our intent may be understood, but if there is room for improvisation, you can bet the contractor will sue and win because the documents "weren't clear".