Refinishing a wood floor

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Author Message Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1319 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - 06:12 pm:    In a building reuse situation, we're removing, refinishing (probably sanding and clear finish) and reinstalling a wood floor (it's on sleepers and we'll reinstall it that way); it's apparently a maple T&G, but not a gym floor. Does anyone have a section they'd be willing to share? - ljavoroski@flad.com - Otherwise, I'll be looking at the wood floor manufacturers/association for advice. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 514 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - 09:12 pm:    Try Gym Floor Inspectors. Saw them at the convention, seemed to know what they're doing. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1208 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 02:40 pm:    Lynn: since wood floor refinishing is also extremely dependent on the quality of the workmanship, I would -- if possible on your project -- prequalify a couple of subcontractors and then ask them for their recommendations. Each one is going to have a preferred system they are proficient in, and have recommendations for the degree of abuse the floor has taken. I think with this (as so many things) the products are somewhat less important than the performance. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1321 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 03:23 pm:    Excellent idea. Thanks. I also thought it might be easier to sand before removal, and refinish after reinstallation. I can't imagine trying to sand and refinish each plank of maple separately (and yes, I know that's means and methods and it won't be in the spec, but perhaps the process should be addressed prior to actual demolition). Any additional thoughts? I sent along the recommendation to qualify the subs and involve them in the process to the PA. Dave Metzger Senior Member Username: davemetzger Post Number: 404 Registered: 07-2001 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 03:42 pm:    Lynn: Why is it necessary to remove the planks, unless you intend to replace the sleepers? The sanding is not only to remove scratches and wear from the individual planks, but to get a uniform overall flooring surface. There may be variances from plank to plank depending on how uniform (or not) the subfloor is. I'd recommend sanding and refinishing after the planks have been reinstalled. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1322 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 03:57 pm:    There's extensive work that has to be done below the wood floor. (I asked that, too) And yes, doing everything after reinstallation should be an option. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 297 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 05:16 pm:    I would also recommend finishing after re-installation. That way, the existing coating is a sacrificial "protective coating" for the planks while they are being stored. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 03:55 pm:    Dave asks the question I have been wondering about. Sanding and refinishing is something that is relatively common. When you have to take the floor up, you add a level of complexity that you may not need unless there is another problem. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1340 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 10:43 am:    I agree with Dave that it should be sanded and refinished once in place. My concern would be the demolition. As most probably realize, the fastening of this flooring is done with square-cut (usually) nails driven through the tongue at an angle of about 45 degrees. It is extremely difficult to disassemble without damaging the tongues because pulling the nails is very difficult. Maple is very hard and somewhat brittle. The square cut nails sever the wood fibers and bend them as they go through, avoiding splitting, but also acting as a clamp of sorts which resists pulling the nail out. If the tongue is broken, the piece cannot be used since that is how it is all held together. (They can be face-nailed and filled, of course.) I would expect a high percentage of broken material, and a high demolition cost for this. Is there something so unique about the material that it must be saved? David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1257 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 04:55 pm:    I have had experience in patching a wood floor due to damage and it turned out well. If, however, the whole floor has to be removed then good bye old floor. It's not worth putting back. Instead a new better floor can be installed and the old floor can be remilled as trim or sold to a salvager. I have had experience in both of these examples. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1326 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 05:05 pm:    The old floor has to be removed for new footings, elevator pit and plumbing modifications. I'm passing along the content of all your concerns, but the salvage/reuse of the existing floor is client driven... Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 299 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, October 21, 2011 - 05:56 pm:    Do you know the size of the wood floor strips? If the client is determined to reuse the existing floor, and we suspect that removal will ruin the existing T&G profiles, you might suggest re-planing them to create narrower strips with brand new T&G edging. Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, October 24, 2011 - 11:13 am:    If the existing tongues are damaged, I believe it is technically feasible to cut a new grove on the “tongue side”. A separate spline is then used between adjacent flooring strips. I believe this is used in repairing or patching flooring. I am sure this is not cheap. Another technique that could work (tedious, labor intensive, and no doubt expensive): Once some wood strips have been removed and access to the tongue side of the flooring is available, a really good craftsman could cut the original nails under the existing floor. The nails can be removed one by one from the wood flooring strips (pushed out of the wood). I presume that damaged sleepers would just be replaced. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1327 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - 12:33 pm:    I will keep these ideas in mind. Thanks! I'm in conversation with the Project Architect on this. We'll see just how much the owner is willing to pay to conserve this wood floor. I've passed on all the concerns and warnings, but so far, the owner still wants to do this. Sometimes I wonder just what owners think they are paying architects for - I been working under the (obvious) delusion that it's for expertise. Apparently, I might be seriously wrong. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1258 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - 01:21 pm:    I spoke to my salvage contractor and he said it might be possible to save the floor. His idea was to cut the floor into 4 foot squares. Then put new edges on the panels and reinstall in a parquet type fashion. Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 101 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 04:50 pm:    "I would also recommend finishing after re-installation. That way, the existing coating is a sacrificial "protective coating" for the planks while they are being stored." Yep. If it has to be removed and reused there's no way it will be "as new" smooth and level after reinstallation. The finish work needs to be treated as a wood floor refinishing job. I'd think about placing the removal and reinstallation...including repairs, because there will be some - in its own section, with provisions for storage, replacement of damaged sections, etc. I'd specify the finishing in its own section as well. It probably will not be handled by the painting sub as it's a specialty unique to the wood flooring industry - but there may be qualified finishers who do not do large-scale R&R jobs. As far as cutting it into squares, it's an interesting idea but 1) it would change the appearance of the floor and 2) I foresee a lot of problems with "minor" cutting errors, reassembly alignment, placement of new sleepers etc. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1333 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 10:27 am:    Well, as is sometimes the case, the Owner finally listened and reusing the existing wood floor has been removed from the project. But in the process of gathering information, I've learned a lot! I had inserted specific instructions regarding salvaging the floor in the selective demolition section and just about completed the wood floor re-installation and finishing section. So they will be saved for (perhaps) future use. It's not a bad thing when you have to use the skills you supposedly have for writing a spec section from scratch; it's good to know you still can. Although, as Carl Sagan wrote about apple pie, "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." I didn't do that. Thanks to all - once again - for your help and expertise and willingness to share. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1260 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 12:48 pm:    Lynn, I recently toured Lake Washington High School project designed by McGranahan Architects. They did a really interesting thing by cutting up the existing gym wood floor into panels. Then they hung the panels on the walls at strategic locations. They even saved the gamelines and graphic logo. It looks great! Contact me and I can send pictures. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 398 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 12:59 pm:    We did something similar on a recent gym moderanization. We sold the floor as planks to donars and contributors to the school. The central emblem was preserved and displayed on the wall. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1334 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 01:47 pm:    Wood (pun intended) that this was that interesting a floor! I did something similar years ago; we used an old tin ceiling (that we couldn't salvage enough of) as as accent wall at the entrance of the building. Cleaned it and coated it to match the exterior of the building. (same building that I drew a cone-shaped cap to be made of copper to reconstruct the turret - my engineering drawing class came in handy.)