4specs.com    4specs.com Home Page

Learn from your mistakes Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

4specs Discussion Forum » Archive Coffee Pot and Water Cooler » Learn from your mistakes « Previous Next »

Author Message
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan

Post Number: 611
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 08:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Most of you have probably heard about the new London skyscraper with a curved facade that focuses the sun's rays onto the street below (see http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/09/03/rafael-vinoly-no-stranger-to-fryscrapers/). You may also remember a Las Vegas hotel with a similar problem.

Turns out they were designed by the same firm. And I thought the very nature of practice was learning from your mistakes.

I still say there is a potential student competition here to design a solar energy recovery system.
Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP
Senior Member
Username: ecwhitby

Post Number: 204
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 09:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Ha!
I wonder when the respective designs were completed? Sometimes projects sit unbuilt for years after being designed.

Personally I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others. Less painful.
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding

Post Number: 678
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 09:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

If only the sun would trace a regular and predictable path across the heavens, then architects wouldn’t face this annoying problem. Perhaps a wizard in a future generation will invent some sort of computing engine that will be able to figure out how the sun reflects off glass.
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe

Post Number: 679
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 09:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

"The architect should be equipped with knowledge of many branches of study and varied kinds of learning, for it is by his judgement that all work done by the other arts is put to test. ... Let him be educated, skilful with the pencil, instructed in geometry, ... Geometry, also, is of much assistance in architecture, and in particular it teaches us the use of the rule and compasses, by which especially we acquire readiness in making plans for buildings in their grounds, and rightly apply the square, the level, and the plummet. By means of optics, again, the light in buildings can be drawn from fixed quarters of the sky." Vitruvius, ~15 BC.

And by geometry and optics also, light can be focused onto unsuspecting passersby.
Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger

Post Number: 472
Registered: 07-2001
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

And if lawyers are involved, the architect may get burned also.
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe

Post Number: 680
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

In this case, that may be appropriate, lawyers or not.
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener

Post Number: 662
Registered: 04-2002


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I, for one, don't make no mistakes.
Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT
Senior Member
Username: rliebing

Post Number: 1424
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Looks like you just made one, John, with that last posting!!!
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat

Post Number: 603
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Don't forget the curved stainless steel facade on the Disney Concert Hall in LA.
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski

Post Number: 1690
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I thought I made a mistake once, but I was mistaken.
George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA
Senior Member
Username: geverding

Post Number: 680
Registered: 11-2004


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I sent the link to my wife and she replied with this story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/02/arts/design/renzo-pianos-nasher-museum-in-dallas-has-sunburn-problem.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

...and I once made two mispelling misstakes in the same sentence.
George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA
Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies
St. Louis, MO
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener

Post Number: 663
Registered: 04-2002


Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Ralph:

You're mistaken. I made two mistakes (think grammar).
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan

Post Number: 612
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 02:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

The link is interesting, but this project and the Disney project in LA don't focus the sun's solar energy like the concave facades of the Las Vegas and London projects do.

I do find the comments from the Museum Tower's architect to be a bit naive. Of course he has responsibility for the impact of his design on the environment. It is a little like saying "I don't have to worry about what happens to the rain water that doesn't permeate into the ground now that I have paved over 90% of my 20 acre site." or "I have enough parking; I don't have to consider the impact my project will have on the traffic in the neighborhood streets." I hope, for his sake, he was quoted out of context.

I am not saying that it is easy to consider every impact that every design has on its neighbors, but large project should have this as a part of their basic design consideration (even when their client might not be on board).
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe

Post Number: 681
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 05:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

It's not rocket science - concave surfaces can concentrate light - but it's nice to have a 10,000 word article say the same thing.

"In a study published last summer in the European Journal of Physics (EJP), two researchers from Germany performed a number of experiments that gave an in-depth explanation of why some skyscrapers have these undesired effects."
http://bit.ly/15Hc20A
Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski

Post Number: 1692
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 05:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I saw an article in our local paper last night wherein someone claimed the building in London had melted part of his Jaguar...(the car, that is)
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre

Post Number: 1373
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

yes, and who knew that Jaguars had plastic parts? (which is what was melted).
I agree with Peter that to ignore the possible effects of curved glass is hopelessly naive -- especially because these issues have gotten so much popular press. The first time this happens, we can perhaps give the designer a pass, but if this happens every two or three years (as it seems to) then someone on the architect's staff isn't reading the popular press. (I would never assume that an architect do such a thing).
As George and Sheldon both pointed out -- these things are somewhat predicable. You simply have to ask the right questions.
Alan Mays, AIA
Senior Member
Username: amays

Post Number: 138
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 01:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Anne, they catch fire also:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/21/dick-van-dyke-escapes-flaming-jaguar-highway-101/

Hmmm.
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat

Post Number: 609
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 02:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I wonder if Dick Van Dyke will buy another Jag?
J. Peter Jordan
Senior Member
Username: jpjordan

Post Number: 614
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

The architect responds http://www.dezeen.com/2013/09/06/we-made-a-lot-of-mistakes-with-this-building-says-walkie-scorchie-architect-vinoly/ Is it just me or does this sound like a "dog ate my homework" excuse?

I am embarrassed by this architect's attempts to she'd responsibility for his work. This guy probably uses unpaid interns and tells people that his firm can't be profitable without free labor.
Justatim
Senior Member
Username: justatim

Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 07:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

This also happened to a Frank Gehry building.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/rllbrite/Lou_Ruvo_1400.jpg
Margaret G. Chewning FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: presbspec

Post Number: 238
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 08:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I've never figured out how anyone can build something like that or even work/live in it.
Guess it is supposed to be "art"?
Sheldon Wolfe
Senior Member
Username: sheldon_wolfe

Post Number: 684
Registered: 01-2003


Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 09:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Does it leak, too?
ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg

Post Number: 595
Registered: 12-2006


Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 02:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Didn't Ford buy Jaguar?

Jags used to use real wood. Guess that would have caught fire too.
Alan Mays, AIA
Senior Member
Username: amays

Post Number: 140
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 02:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Ford sold it to Tata right before or during the recession. It is officially an Indian motor car. I still think they are built in England, though.
Nathan Woods, CSI, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: nwoods

Post Number: 543
Registered: 08-2005


Posted on Monday, September 09, 2013 - 02:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Correct. Jag and Landrover were sold to Tata, who then pumped a few billion into R&D and have launched several new Jag's and the new Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, plus the Evoque, all still built in England. Other than loosing their Best4x4xFar heritage, TATA seems to be doing well with the brands. I will allow that Land Rover did send a trio of LR4's across the Trans-American Trail recently though. Nothing like the Camel Trophy events of the past, but at least it was mostly dirt road....
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre

Post Number: 1375
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 05:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

Peter, et al:
if Vinoly is anything like Gehry, an unpaid person doesn't even walk through the front lobby. The high profile firms are pretty aware how high profile they are, and they don't do things that are easy shots for the disapproving press. (they save that for their designs). As for the melted building, I worked on Ruvo, and the owner is delighted with it; it has made a ton of money for his foundation -- which was part of the program -- and the publicized part that you see is only an entry/reception pavilion, not the whole building.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lou_Ruvo_Center_-_2010-12-10_-_North.JPG This is the north (clinical entry) side of the project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lou_Ruvo_Center_-_West_-_2010-12-10.JPG this is the west side, where you can see how the folded part is attached to the "regular" part of the building.

hard to say if a building in Las Vegas leaks, but under the metal panels is a 60 mil EPDM membrane with welded seams over the entire surface; the stucco is 1" thick (with two drainage lines) and stiffened to l/680 to resist local winds; and the roof is a Hydrotech membrane with pavers over the entire surface.
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat

Post Number: 610
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 01:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

I have to agree with Anne's statement about "high-end" firms. I "grew up" in one, and we had our share of criticisim, some warranted, some not. It is to be expected when you are on the "leading edge" of Design. However, the Firm's Design Partener did win the AIA 25 Year Award, the AIA Gold Medal and the Pritzger Prize, to name a few.
Robert E. Woodburn
Senior Member
Username: bob_woodburn

Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 - 02:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post

The trifecta...

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration