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Author Message David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1271 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 02:29 pm:    I have come to the conclusion that the larger the company the worse the website. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 407 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 02:31 pm:    LOL. That is certainly true of USG, though GP's is fairly usable I think. David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1272 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 02:58 pm:    ......Dow, Sika, Carlisle, etc. A big tip off is when you go to the company's main website and are asked to select a language. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 313 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 02:31 pm:    ....or when you select your region on their website from a map of the world and all of the US and Canada are considered one region. Chris Grimm, CSI, CCS, SCIPa, LEED AP BD+C, MAI, RLA Senior Member Username: tsugaguy Post Number: 266 Registered: 06-2005 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:37 pm:    Sometimes you KNOW they offer a product but it is nowhere to be found. You might start feeling lucky when there's an Architects page or Construction Industry, and it is still not there. Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 493 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 05:46 pm:    Agreed! I think the best websites are from companies where the product rep's message back to marketing is listened to. In the larger companies, the distance between the product rep in the field and the people making website content decisions is too great. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:05 am:    I have said it before and will repeat myself, "Don't let your marketing people do your website!!!" I will also note that for large companies, the primary website (the one you get to under the primary domain name) is often conceived of as a portal for many different types of users including: shareholders, employees, sales people (real sales people, not reps), product representatives, the public, purchasers, and different market segments (like residential and commercial--see Armstrong). It gets even more complex if the company is a multinational. I am not sure what to do about this. The company wants a single web presence / identity / brand, but if not done with thought and care, it can be confusing (what shareholder wants to access a product data sheet for vapor-permeable, fluid-applied air barriers?). Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEED® AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 126 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:53 am:    Good comments all, although I will note that I have seen poor web sites for small and medium sized firms as well are large ones. One of my personal gripes is the web site with what appears to be a link to their catalogue, but in reality only leads to an page to submit a request for a catalogue to be mailed to you. I am often looking for information that I need immediately, not later. I do not understand why all product information (drawings, specifications, material data, etc) cannot be available on-line (and in multiple formats: pdf, cad, text, etc). Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 01:07 pm:    I would suggest that you take the time to tell manufacturer's about the problems with their websites and that you guide them to WebFormat (http://www.csrf.org/html/webform.html) for guidelines on how to improve their websites. WebFormat was created by Colin and later given to CSRF. Unfortunately it doesn't receive as much promotion as it should David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1273 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 01:53 pm:    There have been several times where I have not specified a product because the information on the company's website was so difficult to find. Then I have typically gone to the competitor's website and specified the competitor's product because the information was easier to find! It's all about being clear, concise, complete and correct! Doug Frank FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 288 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 02:08 pm:    Some time ago I needed a guide spec from a manufacture so I went to their web site. The site wasn’t too difficult to navigate, and I saw they had many of their details available for download,, but No Specs. Instead there was a form that I should fill out and send and then they’d send me some specs. I took that opportunity to post a message on their site explaining that I was going to use one of their competitors’ products since that company shared their information, including specs, directly from their web site. I received an phone call from the company a couple of days later and the gentleman explained that he maintains the specifications personally and keeps them on his computer for updating. He told me that, if I’ll send him an e-mail or phone call, he’ll send the specs to me right away. As pleasantly as I could, I told him why that doesn’t work because I might need that information at 11:00 pm some night and I’ll just bet he won’t be at his desk when I call or e-mail. He seemed to understand “my problem” but never quite got that it is really “His” problem. Doug Frank FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate FKP Architects, Inc. Houston, TX Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1224 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 07:13 pm:    I have consulted with some manufacturers and their team of marketing people/web people and shown them exactly what my experience of their web site consists of. I'll take a typical specification problem -- its Sunday afternoon about 2 pm Pacific time -- and I have three more sections to finish, using their products. Starting with the spec section master, I'll walk through their web site and look for the information I need to finish the spec section... and they can see exactly what I'm trying to do, and how that compares to what they think I need. this exercise typically ends up with a pretty good response. As we all know -- the web site people, and the product people never really know what we do with the information they have, or how we use it -- and we're typically the sophisticated information users. the good companies can extrapolate from my experience to the less-sophisticated users. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 05:20 pm:    I'm still amazed by the manufacturers who won't post their technical information so their competition won't know what they're doing. The really goofy ones are those who won't even tell you what their products are. I just want to know what to specify; I'm not going to manufacture a knock-off. At least one coatings manufacturer won't post their test results but wants us to limit allowable bidders to those who meet their performance abilities. I wonder if we need to issue a special handshake or decoder ring to bidders so they can be allowed to see the spec content. Don't these people realize that their competition already know more about their products than we do? J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 05:50 pm:    I am with ken on this. To manufacturers who tell me that they will take responsbility, I say "Whose stamp is on the Drawings?" One aspect of this attitude that is unfortunate is that many architects, especially the younger ones, assume that the manufacturer's product liability relieves them of professional liability. Nooooo... the architect is still professionally liable for making an intelligent selection. Now if the architect has done adequate due diligence; or the Owner says "I don't care what your experience is; I want to use this stuff." In order to make an intelligent product selection (and write a good specification), I need to know something about your s**t. If you won't give some general clue, then how do I know that it is compatible with the s**t the designer wants to put right next to it? Especially for exterior products, I want to know what the resin technology of the material is (silicone? alkyd? polyester? acrylic? fluropolymer?) so I have a general idea about the performance of the product. I don't really care if the you are crosslinking the third molecule from the left with the second one from the right. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1226 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 01:43 pm:    Well, and the silly thing is, don't they know that someone else (if they are smart enough) can back-engineer their work anyway? Its like the spec consultants I know who only provide PDFs, because someone "might copy their documents". Believe me -- once your product (spec book, window wall) leaves the warehouse, its public knowledge. If you have very complicated chemistry, back-engineering might take longer, but its still possible. And, as all specifiers know, the "product" is only half of it. In many dicussions on this forum we've heard consistently "if you can't install and support your product, I don't care how good the product itself is". The people-side is equally important as the product side -- and that's the part that can't be back-engineered. Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 470 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 01:59 pm:    I totally agree with pretty much everything that has been said here. Many manufacturer's websites are impossible to navigate. We need to be able to get in, get the info we need - guide specs, product data/cuts, etc. without have to register and remember a miriad of usernames and passwords. the website that has that generally dosen't get their product specified by me. P.S. I have software on my office computer that converts PDF's to text documents that can then be modified. Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1354 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 02:07 pm:    Heck, most often you can simply copy/paste from an unprotected PDF without separate software. And my password for the vast majority of manufacturer's websites is just that...I really don't care if someone else can "log in to my account". What the heck can they do then? I save really secure passwords for the important stuff. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 04:26 pm:    Actually I've been logging as Lynn for years (just kidding). Maybe we should just create a universal sign-in that we can all share. How about: Username: Username Password: Password Name: Me I Myself Address: 1601 Pennsylvania Ave, NW Washington, DC 20100 Phone: 800-555-1212 Feel free to use it. Let me know if it works! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1356 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 04:42 pm:    That's a great idea...and I like the address, too. Maybe, just maybe, if enough people did this, they'd get the message. Username (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 05:36 pm:    Ken, Yes, it works . . . on most sites. See, it even works on this web site. [except the message was put into the same queue as one with no names - Merry Christmas, Colin] ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 121 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 04:37 pm:    Sorry Colin. I didn't mean to put you in the middle of this. We (obviously) love you and your website. Having said that...A couple updates to our fictional sign-in info: Username: Username101 (Username has already been used on a number of websites) Password: Password101 (some of these folks require a capital letter and at least number) email address: birdcrazy411@gmail.com (they are also requiring an email address to send confirmations. In some cases, the email address is the Username). The password I set up for birdcrazy411@gmail.com is also Password101. Please do not abuse this with inappropriate websites. I am curious to see how many people do use this. Please feel free to pass it on. Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 112 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2011 - 02:09 pm:    Richard - at least on Macs (which I converted to 4 years ago and have never looked back) it seems almost every user I know has a version of Iris; it's the type of software you're talking about - OCR, or Optical Character Recognition software. I use it for all those annoying locked pdf's. I'll either save the whole web page as a PDF or do a "print screen" if I'm in a hurry...then load the jpg file into Preview or Photoshop, save it s a PDF, convert it with Iris (usually having make just a few edits in the "translation") and save as a text file or whatever. It actually takes less time than it did to type this on my iPad! As far as the original question, I heartily agree - the "big boys" seem to have too many decision makers having their say, resulting in fragmented, difficult to navigate sites. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 409 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2011 - 02:41 pm:    Iris (actually, "ReadIris" is available for Mac and PC: http://www.irislink.com/c2-1584-189/Readiris-12---OCR-Software-------Convert-your-Paper-Documents-into-Editable-Text-.aspx However, if you have Bluebeam versin 9 or higher, or the full version of Acrobat (not the limited free Reader version), OCR is already a feature set in those powerful PDF apps and works quite well. Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 115 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 03:10 pm:    Thanks Nathan - this brings to mind the bloat in much of today's software. I've used Iris for years because I needed an OCR program. Yet I've usually had a current or one iteration old version of Acrobat as part of Adobe Creative Suite. There's just SO much stuff packed into CS5, for example (or CS2, which is still running on an old G4 in my garage workshop!) that I never noticed there was OCR capability built in! Heck, just between Adobe and Microsoft Office I could spend a year just getting familiar with ALL the good stuff..and junk...built into them. Anyone else remember running Wordperfect Executive on something like a Toshiba 1100 from a single 720k "floppy" drive? It was a fully capable office suite - at least in 1980-something or so! (Flashback time - I remember David Lorenzini teaching me how to install the Seagate ST225 20MB...yes, *megabyte*...hard drive and controller card I'd just bought in my IBM PC clone. What a deal - I'd gotten both for only $200!!) J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2012 - 10:05 am:    I bought a Toshiba 1100 (dual floppy disk) in 1986; was one of the first true laptops. And, yes, I remember running (and heavily using) WordPerfect on that platform. Oh, and the first hard disk drive that I purchased was Apple's 10Mb (or was it 5) ProFile for an Apple ///. I think it cost significantly more than my last desktop computer purchase. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1355 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 12:14 pm:    How about WordPro and Multimate - anyone remember them? I wrote specs on both of those programs at various times. Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 177 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2012 - 01:05 pm:    OK if you want to go back in time, I started writing specs on a CPT word processor in the early 80's. At that time there were very few specifiers who edited their own specs on a machine. Expensive people didn't work on machines! What a concept! The printer did about a page a minute and would do about a 100 pages on a cartridge. Remember finishing projects at night, starting the printer, going to sleep on the sofa, and waking up to the ding to replace the cartridge. Fun days! Later had a machine that was both a CPT and a PC in the same machine as we made the transition from word processing to a PC. Also remember before that when specs were off of ditto masters. You had better have had a good reason before you went to the secretary to make her make a change to a ditto master. Also remember having my wife and two kids collating a specification around the conference room table on a weekend in order to have it out on Monday. My son also remembers that! Also remember printing a ditto master spec on both sides to save paper. Only did that once! We learn from experience! Lynn Javoroski FCSI CCS LEED® AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1585 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 10:49 am:    Manufacturer's bad websites revisited - 3M. The company is so big with so many diverse products that not only did I have problems finding a product, when I emailed the product number I had, even they couldn't find it! And when I suggested they should improve their "search" feature, I was blown off. Grrrr...I'm looking for competitor's products. Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 602 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 01:27 pm:    3M has always been one of my least-favorite manufacturers, at least for getting information. They make some great products, but trying to get information is frustrating. I suspect construction products generate only a small part of their income, so they don't get much attention. And, as Lynn notes, they have so many things they don't even know what they have. If you call the wrong department, it's likely the person you talk with won't know where to transfer your call, and they often aren't aware the company makes what you're looking for. If you do happen to find someone who knows something, save the contact information! John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: john_regener Post Number: 600 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 05:05 pm:    I had a friend who worked for Kraft foods ... a company noted for bureaucracy. For fun, he called Nabisco and asked to speak to the Vice President for fig newtons. The response was, "bulk or packaged?" Re: big manufacturers of construction products ... it is a matter of perspective. Organize according to the corporation's world-view and marketing or adapt to users who are seeking for aid in selling their products (i.e., specifying)? ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 504 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - 03:51 pm:    I just spoke with a friend, Steve Scharr at Metalwerks; excellent aluminum plate system manufacturer who also does composite and other metal panels. We were talking about having to register (apparently someone had used the sign in we established here; I told him I was the guilty party). He said that they have their details in PDF and their specs available without registration but ask for registration for their CAD files. After some further discussion, Steve has agreed that when they 'redo' their website (coming soon), they will get rid of the registration requirement. He seems to understand our point of view. Of course Steve always was one of the more reasonable people in our industry, one of the reasons I like using his products. Win one for both sides! Communication works! steve scharr (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - 04:27 pm:    Thanks for the endorsement Ken- As content producers we always struggle with what we perceive to be the tension between design and spec writing. We always thought our product tended to be selected by the designer and not the spec writer. It is interesting and informative reading these posts. We always felt that the CAD files, which saved the firm's detailer time and money, was worth requesting a contact and job name at least. Firms that use our details find them helpful. We'll give them away for free you just need to ask nicely. Perhaps we've been shooting ourselves in the foot. I will definitely revisit this issue soon. We are "re-skinning" our site in the 3rd quarter.