We work with them?!

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Author Message (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 11:05 am:    Had a senior project architect (in my office) tell me to put the specs on a sheet and not worry about the "front end". When I tried to explain to him that the "front end" laid out the rules of the game, he replied, "I don't see why we need that stuff anyway, just takes up space". UGGGHHHHH! Thanks for letting me vent. anonymous for a reason. J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 07:01 pm:    I love the scene in "A Man for all Seasons" where the young ambitious man, trying to impress Thomas More, declares that he would tear down every law in England to get at the Devil. "Where would you hide," asks More, "when you have torn down these laws and the Devil turns on you?" Movie is from the mid-1960s; still worth seeing. And where will this "senior project architect" hide when his project goes south and he needs cover (those specs are heavy for a reason)? And does the design practice where he works have the cash to cover the deductible? (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:21 am:    The same attitude is alive and well with engineers. Robert W. Johnson Senior Member Username: robert_w_johnson Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2009 Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 10:53 am:    Another reason for promoting CDT education for everyone in A/E firms. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1066 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 11:30 am:    My former boss said this to a young architect about 28 years ago and it gets more relevant the older I get: "I don't care if you're ignorant, but if you're going to revel in it, I have no time for you." George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 568 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 11:34 am:    You really don't need the "front end" - I agree. Just like you really don't need all that pesky fire code stuff (sprinklers, firestopping, alarms, etc.) in your buildings. After all, if you never have a fire, you've wasted a lot of money on stuff that never gets used. Like the original poster, I use the term "rules of the game" in my classes. I think that phrase most adequately conveys to the uninitiated what Divisions 00 and 01 do - and Part 1 of the individual sections for that matter. Amen about CDT. If you ask someone who has just done the CDT studying and test what they most valued about the experience, almost universally you will hear them talk about how it increased their understanding of the organization of the documents and the rights and responsibilites of the parties. "The Tower of Power", "The Wheel of Fortune", "The Holy Trinity". If you don't know which diagrams I refer to, get a copy of the PRM - immediately. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 456 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 02:24 pm:    It's been said before that this goes back to the schools, where design is god and nothing else matters. "An ounce of presentation is worth a pound of design." As long as the schools, which are run by starchitect wannabes, care only about big-D design and don't teach the basic tools of our trade - real drawings, contract documents, and thinking about how stuff goes together - this problem will continue. There are a few schools that pay some attention, but most seem to believe in on-the-job training - "Don't worry about specs, you can learn that when you get a job." To heck with the USGBC approach of requiring a LEED AP on every project; if you want to make an impact, make CDT part of the college curriculum. I've been fortunate in not working with people like the senior project architect mentioned above, though I think many of them consider specifications a necessary evil. Most of them at least lighten up a bit when they're deep in construction and run into a problem, then turn to the specifier to find out "Where does it say they have to do this or can't do that?" Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1067 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:51 am:    and the critical note there is "starchitect wannabes". Almost the first thing the starchitect realizes (after a few lawsuits) is that the only way to execute those exotic designs is to be very top and bottom heavy on technical staff. I had one client a long time ago who tended to be sort of shoddy in terms of enforcement, and I said if he ever ignored my documents again, I would simply bind two reams of black paper, put a cover on it and send him the bill. Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 44 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:52 am:    LMAO @ Anne...the questions I have to that are: a) what kind of a reaction did that get? Did it actually improve anything? b) did you ever follow-through on that comment and are they still a client? But I will have to say a more hard-nosed approach can sometimes work wonders. I had a "run in" with a "golden boy" a couple of years ago who although he has gotten better, still has a long way to go before he should actually be "running jobs" by himself. He tried to bully me into issuing an addendum on his promised timeframe to a very reasonable CM that we have worked with many times. Instead of giving me an extra hour or two to fine tune the "extensive" addendum (IMHO) so we didn't have to go back and amend the addendum items in the future he wanted it issued by noon as he had promised (despite not getting me the majority of the information until the eleventh hour). When I stood my ground and told him I would issue the addendum when it was ready to be issued, he stomped off shouting "Just get the f*%$ing thing done." After I calmed myself for a couple moments so that I didn't go and strangle him, I calmly walked into the Managing Architect's office (who's stamp was on the drawings) and told him that he better "get him under control, and that if it wasn't one of his projects I would have told him (the golden boy) to shove it up his pompous a$$, finish the addendum himself and walked out". With eyes the size of saucers, the Managing Architect assured me that wouldn't be necessary, had a chat with not only the "golden boy" but one of the two partners as well. It was amazing how the partner was super-nice (more than usual) the next time I saw him a little while later and thanked me for all the effort I was putting in on the addendum. Of course the golden boy's response to that was to start doing future addenda by himself, until the CM copied me on a distribution and I pointed out all the errors in the addendum and the possible liability the firm had been exposed to. In the long run, there may be hope for the golden boy as he stated on a project after that "I am really starting to appreciate your attention to detail". If only the same could be said for his improved technical/contractual knowledge! Ride it like you stole it!!! David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1160 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:41 pm:    Unregistered, Here is what I would have done in your situation. I would have first agreed with the project architect, "You know you may be right. We may not need all that front end stuff anyway." Then I would have printed out all the Division 01 sections. (I assume that is what the project architect meant by "the front end".) Then I would have handed the sections to the project architect and said, "Why don't you review these and cross off the items that you don't think that is needed on this project." This would force the project architect to actually read Division 01 sections.....because you know he/she has never read them and probably could not even guess what those sections contain. Then if the project architect did cross anything out I would question his/her every edit. "Did you mean to delete _______? Don't you think that the contractor is going to need ___________? Does this mean that the Owner is going to pay for the items you deleted? Who is going to perform the work because we certainly need __________ on the project." As and added bonus, you have a CYA document. If the project architect insists on deleted something important, despite your objections, you have something to fall back to deflect the blame. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1071 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 03:02 pm:    Paul: never had a problem with that client again. they always reviewed their documents, called in early on the job and paid on time. I think if you're measured when you threaten people, and "few and far between" when you really haul off and get mad, then people pay attention to those times you do. (and of course, that post of mine should have said "blank" paper, not "black " paper.) Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 46 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 03:15 pm:    Anne: I couldn't agree more. It is like I always tell my step-sons about the rampant use of the "F-word" by most teens/early 20's kids today...when you use it every other word, it loses its impact. This hit home with the youngest of the 4 when this past summer I was awoken at 2:30 one Tuesday morning by a slamming door from the garage (which is right under the master bedroom), then followed by loud, blaring, obnoxious "music" (?). When I went downstairs I kind of (ok, nothing kind of about it) lost my grip on reality with him (and his friend) who saw nothing wrong with having the garage door 1/3 of the way open in addition to the aforementioned issues (considering we have 26 kids under the age of 12 on our cul-de-sac). The next day when his mother got home from work he apologized profusely. She told him he was lucky it was me who came down and not her. Mixed into the apology was the statement "but was it really necessary for Paul to drop the f-bomb eight times in 3 sentences?". My reply was I guess you knew exactly how mad I was didn't you? Ride it like you stole it!!!