| Author |
Message |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 12:43 pm: |    |
We, as professional specifiers, need to have a code of conduct that states that we don't apply for another specifier's job, while that specifier is still employed.
Of course this code of conduct would not prohibit specifiers from competing for the same job opening or for independent consultants competing for the same project. |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener
Post Number: 478
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 05, 2010 - 01:44 pm: | |
David:
There are about seven independent specifiers in Orange County, CA. We meet together about twice a month ("lunch and learn" hosted by building product manufacturer). We are competitors yet we have collegial relationships. Referrals are made.
Much as I'd like to stake a claim to certain clients, I compete with my no. 1 competitor for this client's work.
If someone was to try to take work from me by slandering me to a client, I'd react strongly. But fair competition is a fact of life.
There was once a situation where three of us specifiers were asked to submit fee proposals. It turned out, despite very different ways of estimating the fee, we were within $150 without having discussed anything among are selves. (Fees are never discussed in our meetings.)
Similarly, when there's a job opening for an in-house specifier, one should be able to compete upon merit. If merit is not the basis for selecting employees, there are other remedies. |
Ron Beard CCS
Senior Member
Username: rm_beard_ccs
Post Number: 357
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 01:22 pm: | |
If we were true professionals, we wouldn't need a code of conduct.
"Fast is good, but accurate is better."
.............Wyatt Earp |
(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 02:36 pm: | |
Are you suggesting...collusion? Do employers have no right to or otherwise restricted from wanting to "replace" an employee? |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 08:04 pm: | |
It's not collusion, it's ethics.
If we as specifiers want to remain as viable profession we have to work with each other and not against each other. Independent specifier's can compete with each other but should not steal each others established clients. |
Mark Gilligan SE,
Senior Member
Username: mark_gilligan
Post Number: 330
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 06, 2010 - 10:07 pm: | |
Various professional associations used to have codes of ethics but I believe in the early 1980's the FTC decided that these restrained competition. The net result was that AIA, ASCE, and other organizations modified their codes of ethics. |
Robin E. Snyder
Senior Member
Username: robin
Post Number: 339
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 11:41 am: | |
David - respectfully disagree. There is nothing unethical about a person applying for a job, even if that job is already held by another. Happens every day, all the time and is a part of business. If the employer is happy w/ the current employee, it is a non-issue. Unless the applicant is slandering the current employee, the ability to pursue work and the choice to hire and fire employees is part of having a free, capitalistic economy. What makes you suggest this is "unethical"??? It may be annoying if a colleague pursues your job, but it isn't unethical. |
John Regener, AIA, CCS, CCCA, CSI, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: john_regener
Post Number: 482
Registered: 04-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 02:15 pm: | |
An over-riding issue, in my opinion, is having a level playing field or a least a playing field where it is understood what the game is.
In the game of spec writing (in-house or out-sourced), the game is not well-understood, in my opinion. If design firm owners, construction managers, building product manufacturers and others who make hiring decisions for spec writers do not understand what spec writers do and do not appreciate the value of well-prepared construction specifications, salary or fee will be disproptionately the basis for selection.
Skill level, experience, temperment, networking and other qualities that are difficult to quantify will be denigrated or ignored. If the goal is only to assemble words as cheaply as possible, then a paraprofessional who can electronically cut-and-paste prepared text may seem adequate.
In my opinion ... and I struggle with this every day ... the greatest thing that CSI can do for specifiers is to promote the value of well-prepared specifications to the construction industry. Then those who can cost-effectively produce well-prepared specifications will prosper. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2010 - 03:04 pm: | |
I think the issue here is not if someone would apply for a job that is posted or announced (which would be normal especially if you're unemployed) but rather who would want to work for an employer that publicly posted a job that is currently held by an employee? I've been called by search companies about seemingly "open" positions and after I've checked around and found that the position isn't actually vacant (and they weren't expanding the department) declined to apply because I don't want to work for an employer who can't work things out with their current employee or slowly push them out. (and who wants to step into that situation -- its hard enough to start a new job without that office political burden.) (I know of one employer who simply refused raises and bonuses to one spec writer for two years until they left on their own). From the employer's standpoint, its not strategic to let someone go (unless they really messed up) -- they are stuck with unemployment benefits and all kinds of repercussions, and its better for them if the employee leaves on their own accord.
And I agree that if employers valued well prepared documents and the global viewpoint that a specifier brings to the project, then money isn't going to be the deciding factor -- performance and "fit" is. |
David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI
Senior Member
Username: david_axt
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 08, 2010 - 12:43 pm: | |
Great points Anne and John!
As you know there are only a handful of specifiers and specification consultants. This profession is certainly not growing and is probably shrinking. Because of this we need to stick together as a group and work with each other.
One of the things I really like about our profession is the willingness for other professionals to help each other out. Many times I have contacted a colleague for advise or for a specification, and vice-versa. We don't really compete with each other even though our firms may.
I know of no architects that contact another architect for detailing help. I know of no project managers that another project manager for help on client/consultant management issues. I know of no partner that contacts another partner on marketing issues.
If we as specifiers start backstabbing, plagiarizing, stealing jobs and clients, sabotaging, or just stop communicating with each other we will soon find ourselves together again.....in the unemployment line. |
Robert W. Johnson
Senior Member
Username: robert_w_johnson
Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 12:02 pm: | |
“We, as professional specifiers, need to have a code of conduct that states that we don't apply for another specifier's job, while that specifier is still employed.”
In a free country, everyone is free to apply for employment at any or all firms. So you are suggesting that everyone is obligated to investigate whether the firm has someone in the position they are interested in before applying? Interesting prospect for someone who is relocating to a new area because of personal reasons. They are now supposed to somehow do an investigation to determine which firms in the relatively unknown area have someone in their position before they apply?
A firm posts a position that someone already holds. Because of that no one is supposed to apply for the posted position? How do you know what the purpose of the posting is? Is the firm expanding rapidly? Is the firm opening another office? Is the firm acquiring another firm that lacks the desired position? Is the firm looking to replace their existing employee? It would seem that any intelligent applicant might want to maintain or drop their application as they find out more what the situation is. To mandate that the applicant should not apply because there is someone in that position (whether they know it or not) is pretty extreme and has nothing to do with ethics.
“If we as specifiers want to remain as viable profession we have to work with each other and not against each other.”
As you note in a later posting, this has been true of specifiers all the years I have been involved. But as several as noted, we have an open competitive marketplace that allows anyone to make business propositions to others. We are all free to accept or reject those offers on their merits. People who come up with good ideas of how to improve the process of accomplishing the required tasks are often the successful ones. Ideas successfully accomplished raise the bar for others to meet. I believe this is the idea behind a competitive capitalistic society. Attacking others in a negative manner is not acceptable and usually is not very successful except in our current political world where attacking your opponent seems to have become the way everyone goes.
“As you know there are only a handful of specifiers and specification consultants. This profession is certainly not growing and is probably shrinking. Because of this we need to stick together as a group and work with each other.”
There is obviously more than a handful but also obviously fewer specifiers than other positions in A/E firms.
Do you have any evidence that the profession is shrinking besides being caused by the current economy?
In my experience as a technical person and specifier in the design/construction industry for over 50 years, your success in this position is primarily based on your positive contributions to the success of the firm you are working or consulting for. Are you a good contributing team member? Do you keep the firm out of trouble? Do you help solve project problems in a positive manner? Do you help solve identified firm problems in a positive manner? Do you help others in the firm grow? Are you a good listener as well as teacher? When you perform well in a majority of areas such as these, you will be a valued employee or consultant that the firm will want to keep performing for them. To illustrate; a long time ago I was a new highly paid technical employee of firm of 150 that because of a depression went down to a firm of under 40 in a couple of years. I was not let go during that time because of the positive contributions I was making to the firm, not all of them technical even though I was not even an associate at that time.
When people see the positive contributions of a technical/specifier in a firm, that experience will carry with them the rest of their career wherever it takes them. They will work to have such a person in their work environment wherever they go; they might even aspire to become such a person. It is our individual positive contributions as technical/specifier types that help the profession grow. The proof is in the pudding.
New Available Tools: There are always transitions when new tools become available – I have seen quite a few in my years of experience. We are starting to experience this transition with BIM. BIM probably means that the form of specification type information will change. This will not change the need for technical/specifier types that have the knowledge and experience to ensure that projects are constructible and will perform their basic functions. You can improve the communication tools, but that does not negate the need for the knowledge and experience to populate those tools with good information. Some firms may have to learn this lesson the hard way, but they will eventually learn it.
“If we as specifiers start backstabbing, plagiarizing, stealing jobs and clients, sabotaging, or just stop communicating with each other we will soon find ourselves together again.....in the unemployment line.”
I have no idea where this thought is coming from.
That is certainly not the long tradition of this profession and I haven’t seen any signs of it changing.
I would be interested in hearing why you think this is a danger. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 02:45 pm: | |
David:
I know a lot of project managers who ask other PMs for help solving a problem or trying a new approach. I also know technical architects who consult with other technical architects, and designers who talk with technical architects and spec writers. I have even worked with building owners who consult with specifiers.
In my last two employed positions, I regularly had younger staff come to me and say "because of you, I'm a better architect and this is a better project". This "result" is what I see as my primary job now -- helping people to be better architects and helping projects to be better projects. My clients now are people I've worked with who have gone to other firms or started their own firms. Two of my clients have asked to simply "run a tab" so they can ask as many questions as they want during construction because they think my viewpoint brings value to their projects that is worth more than my hourly rate.
There are certainly people in the firms I've worked for who I didn't particularly like and didn't think I was a good fit for as a consultant. However, I have never thought anyone was "malicious, backstabbing, plagiaristic or stealing a job". Part of becoming a mature professional is understanding the various motivations of the parties to the contract -- and I simply don't think people are malicious.. or any of that other stuff. |
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