BRICK PAVERS INSTALLATIONS IN NEW ENG...

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Author Message Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 419 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 10:40 am:    I recently encountered a pedestrian traffic grade clay brick paver assembly that seems to be prevelant in New England. New Haven CT to be exact. It consists of pavers over 2% neporene modified asphalt adhesive over 3/4" rolled bituminous setting bed over protection course over waterproofing over concrete slab. Is this a common construction assembly used by the government DOTs that provide requirements for streets, roads, sidewalks, curbs and gutters? Where can I obtain more information for this construction? Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 414 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 12:12 pm:    Wayne, What was the Project? I spent my formative spec years just outside of New Haven, CT Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 420 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 12:51 pm:    Richard, I found the "bitumen-set concrete pavers" system described in a spec online at the ICPI website. Contact me offline at wayne.yancey@callison.com and I will tell you more. William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 831 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 01:01 pm:    This is not an uncommon assembly, brick or concrete pavers. There are a number of jurisdictions around the Washington, DC area that use this. Still, regardless of the thinness of the bituminous setting bed, it will compress under local pressure - meaning, if something weighty bears on a paver or couple pavers, you can get a depression in it. The problem seems to be more concerned with deliveries or emergency and police vehicles that pull onto this type pavement, regardless that it is a sidewalk. I always try to recommend that there be some barriers or something that can protect this from happening. This also falls under what would classified as a flexible setting bed. That is, pavers, regardless of brick, or concrete, should be set hand tight, sand swept, no mortar joint. It just cracks free and then the pavers really start to move about. Still, there are some jurisdictions here which require this setting bed and also require mortar joints. Can't say much about that, you just have to live with it in that case. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 59 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 09:36 am:    I've never heard of this type of system for unit paving in the 20 years I have been in this profession! Seems like a bit of overkill to me. Even in the Great White North we usually install unit pavers over a compacted sand base over a compacted granular sub-base. Since I have learned something today, can I go home now? Ride it like you stole it!!! Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 1108 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 12:56 pm:    I've done this setting system too, and William is right -- its sort of a soft bed if you have fire trucks rolling over it, because it just gets all mashed down; for regular cars and people, it works just fine, and the bituminous bed stays somewhat flexible in freezing weather, which is sort of the point. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 421 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 01:03 pm:    Thanks all. The end use of my project is pedestrian traffic only. Wayne Ron Beard CCS Senior Member Username: rm_beard_ccs Post Number: 371 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:39 pm:    I have used it several times [also in the DC area] especially over heavy-duty driveways over structures. Highway grade [100-psi] rigid foam over concrete substructure with asphalt paving or the thinner asphalt application to receive pavers. My concerns about any sand swept joints in pavers is where is the water going once it gets to the bitumen level. All of New England has to deal with freeze-thaw issues. I usually recommend a slope to one of the sides, as a minimum. "Fast is good, but accurate is better." .............Wyatt Earp William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: wpegues Post Number: 832 Registered: 10-2002 Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:49 pm:    Yes, you should slope it and deal with water at the asphalt level as well as the waterproofing membrane level if there is waterproofing below the asphalt. But as far as New England goes and freeze issues, warmer climates may actually be worse. Damage from this comes from freeze thaw cycles, warmer climates may more cycles of freezing and thawing than New England. Frozen is frozen, no matter how cold. But freeze and thaw as a cycle works on the material to open it up so that additional water comes in and enters the voids created by the first freeze. DC goes back and forth across the freeze thaw boundary quite frequently. So, one should not equate freeze thaw issues with just very cold locations. William William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 05:36 pm:    Sorry; I am from S. Texas with 19 years in Hawaii... Anything north of I-10 is a very cold location. Gerard Sanchis Senior Member Username: gerard_sanchis Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2009 Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 09:08 am:    it is not an assembly I would use where you expect heavy traffic. We experienced a failure a number of years ago with a similar "soft" setting bed. Truck drivers turn the front wheels of their buses (in our case) and trucks when at rest; the weight and force of the vehicle is transmitted to the pavers and causes them to move through a shearing action from the setting bed. The system failed and was replaced by an engineered sand bed. The failure occured on a large scale mockup. Small scale sample panels are good, but large mockups are better......... Russ Hinkle, AIA, CDT, LEED AP Senior Member Username: rhinkle Post Number: 84 Registered: 02-2006 Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 02:23 pm:    I Grand Rapids, MI we reopened the pedestrian mall to vehicle traffic and installed concrete pavers over sand over concrete slabs (with snowmelt). This was done for both the sidewalks and roads with an understanding that the largest load would be the fire truck outriggers for the ladder. The sidewalks sloped to the road and we included weep drains at the curbs to below grade. The concrete was on heavy load extruded insulation to help reflect the snowmelt heat up. System has worked great for 15 years now. The biggest problem is convincing the utilities not to paint on it when someone calls miss dig! Russ Hinkle Brian E. Trimble, CDT Senior Member Username: brian_e_trimble_cdt Post Number: 37 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 12:09 pm:    This is a VERY common system used across the US. There is a little bit of misinformation posted in this thread - this system is used for all types of traffic, pedestrian, light vehicular and heavy vehicular. The idea that the asphalt setting bed is "soft" is not really true. In very hot climates, the asphalt setting bed may be softer, but this mixture is very much like asphalt on a roadway, just with smaller aggregate and slightly cut-back asphalt. Civil engineers tend to like this type of system since they are familiar with asphalt and feel that it is a better system than one set in sand. That's not really true, but that is why you see this system used in street applications all the time. Water is an issue with this paving system just like any other system. Sand is the recommended joint filler and so water does penetrate down to the asphalt level. As Ron mentioned most of the drainage should occur on the surface (2% slope) and the amount between the pavers and in the asphalt setting bed in inconsequential. The freeze/thaw resistance of this system is very good and there are plenty of examples in New England and other areas where it has performed fine. For information on this system, please read Technical Note 14B on our website at www.gobrick.com. We just rewrote this Tech Note last year, so it is very up to date. Brian Trimble Sr. Dir., Engineering Service Brick Industry Association btrimble@bia.org Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 423 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 12:20 pm:    Thanks Brian, I found similar information on the ICPI website along with a guide spec. Wayne John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1296 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Friday, February 11, 2011 - 12:18 pm:    I've seen this system used in Boston area and am not aware of particular problems. Also common here is sand-bed brick paving, used for sidewalks in many towns around here. Historically, this was a common type of sidewalk paving, so it is still commonly used. Since it is flexible, to tends to stay intact when there is minor settlement. I love walking along older sections of these sidewalks where the bricks have been worn down to a nice, even texture over many years - no sharp corners anymore. While I'm waxing poetic, granite curbs are also common here. The curbs on the main road near where I live have been in place for about 130 years. (No that's not not a typo: 130 years is what I meant.) So there are fully-rounded curbs at some crosswalks merely from the many thousands of shoes that have stepped on them. Wicked-cool!