| Author |
Message |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 46
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:32 am: |    |
This is something that I should know - but do not. We seldom specify plastic laminate faced doors or use simulated wood grain plastic laminate on casework or millwork. We are now staring to use simulated wood grain impact resistant wall covering. A question has come up on how to specify grain orientation / matching. This has raised the whole question of how this is typically specified for simulated wood grain products. A quick review of the AWI stds. did not result in seeing specific controls for wood grained plastic laminate. I would expect that it would have similar requirements to actual wood veneers. What am I missing? Your help will be appreciated - thank you. |
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: wpegues
Post Number: 800
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:44 am: | |
I would not try to adapt the grain orientation of wood to plastic laminate. I mean, you could, but you would really need to keep saying that it was plastic laminate you were talking about and not wood. Even so, you are using a standard for one material (veneers) to direct another (plastic laminate).
It is a separate material, simply treat it differently.
The default with plastic laminate is much like any material, the pattern on the material is to run in the longest direction of the substrate that it is applied to.
If that is not the direction you want it to run, you can specify that it is to run all vertical, or all horizontal, or show pattern/grain direction on the drawings.
I prefer the later since if someone changes something in the design about orientation, they don't have to remember to come tell me.
Veneer special direction graining runs is recommended to be indicated the same way, but then so is grain in metal finishes like number 4 stainless steel.
William C. Pegues, FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate
WDG Architecture, Washington, DC | Dallas, TX |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 281
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:46 am: | |
Dale,
Go to Section 400, page 133 in the 2003 AWI/AWMAC - 8th Edition Quailty Standards for Architectural Cabinets.
Wayne |
Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate
Senior Member
Username: lynn_javoroski
Post Number: 956
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 11:11 am: | |
As far as appearance is concerned, I think you do want to treat simulated wood grain products like a wood veneer. The AWI grades of Premium, Custom and Economy apply.
The new Architectural Woodwork Standards, 1st Edition, has the same information. Check Section 4 Sheet Products, Section 8 and Appendix B/8 Wall Surfacing, and Section 10 Casework (page 252 for the same illustration cited above) |
Dale Hurttgam, NCARB, AIA,LEED AP, CSI
Senior Member
Username: dwhurttgam
Post Number: 47
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 11:22 am: | |
Thank you for your quick responses and useful information. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 354
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 12:25 pm: | |
I'm glad to see that Lynn is up to date with the current Architectural Woodwork Standards
These became effective October 1st and is the result of a joint venture between WI, AWI, and AWMAC |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 282
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:21 pm: | |
Lynn and Richard,
Thanks for the update on the new Architectural Woodwork Standards, 1st Edition. With a unified standard, should specs continue to refer to AWI or WI in the US? Does it matter anymore other than referencing AWMAC for Canadian projects? |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 813
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:29 pm: | |
The documents should refer to the AWS with no reference to a specific organization. However, refer to AWI or WI if specific certification programs are required for the project.
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 283
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:45 pm: | |
Ron,
In the past I made reference to AWI Section numbers. Should these go away? |
Ronald L. Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
Senior Member
Username: specman
Post Number: 814
Registered: 03-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:49 pm: | |
Yes. You will now have to make reference to AWS section numbers.
Ron Geren, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA, SCIP
www.specsandcodes.com |
John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP
Senior Member
Username: bunzick
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 03-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 08:21 am: | |
I don't reference specific AWI section nummbers, or generally any article within a standard (except, perhaps, in rare instances--which I can't think of right now). You can and probably should specify "grain" direction for wood-grain laminates, and in fact, you can do that for any laminate that is not a truly random pattern or texture (I do). However, you cannot do matching with p. lam. the way you do with real wood. You get what you get. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 355
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:01 am: | |
Wayne,
That's a good question
Since I'm in CA I still reference WI, but with the AWS Section numbers as they have been revised for the new 1st edition.
However, since I currently sit on the WI Board, I will past this along.
Depending upon where you are located, you may be able to obtain a copy of the AWS from WI for free. |
Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: awhitacre
Post Number: 922
Registered: 07-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:07 pm: | |
another way, especially useful for small projects with minimal specs is to simply have an arrow on the drawings showing grain direction. |
Wayne Yancey
Senior Member
Username: wayne_yancey
Post Number: 285
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:55 am: | |
Matching of plam grain direction is possible if face plam for doors and drawers modules that fall within the 48-60" sheet widths.
Simply spec PREMIUM grade. |
Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: rlmat
Post Number: 357
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 11:25 am: | |
I contacted WI and received the following reply:
For Grain Direction for woodgrain plastic laminate - "SEE SECTION 10, PAGE 261, ITEM 4.2.1"
As for referencing the new standards - OFFICALLY IN THE "WI Approach" WE SIMPLY SUGGEST SAYING "in accordance with the Architectural Woodwork Standards, latest edition", if desired one can add "as published jointly by AWI, AWMAC and WI"
I hope this helps |
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