Grass: Artificial vs Real

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Author Message Russell W. Wood, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: woodr5678 Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 09:48 am:    In lieu of natural grass, we have been asked to consider using artificial turf at our football fields & high school stadiums. We've heard good...the users seem to like it. We've heard bad...potential health risks & heat island. Does anyone have experience with artificial turf? J. Peter Jordan Senior Member Username: jpjordan Post Number: 356 Registered: 05-2004 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 12:21 pm:    Most of the professional teams have gone back to natural grass. It is my understanding that the rate of injuries on synthetic turf is significantly higher at this level (don't know about high school level). One of the issues is flexibility. Some of the newer pro stadiums have relatively elaborate systems for taking turf out for an event and replacing it for the next game. This will, of course, significantly boost the maintenance cost as well as first costs. I would be willing to bet that the "users" who like artificial turm are those who must consider maintenance cost of natural vs. artificial turf. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 924 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 12:27 pm:    I think it's Arizona (might be Atlanta) that has a domed professional football facility, but the field, which is real grass, rolls out on tracks to get sun and rain... Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 01:07 pm:    Lynn - you're inital comment is correct. The stadium is the Arizona Cardinals Stadium in Glendale, AZ Peter is also correct in that the artificial turf leads to more injuries because it is less forgiving My 2 younger nephews played HS football & Lacrosse and College Lacrosse They played on a mix of surfaces, both natural grass and a synthetic surface called "Nike Turf" which is apparently far superior and less prone to causing injuries. Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1047 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 02:05 pm:    My understanding is that this is a situation of "no-win"-- concrete slab under the turf causes more and increases severity of all sorts of injuires [like falling on the sidewalk from 4-feet up!], but turf cushion can't be too "cushy" or running will be inhibited. Also, the "blades" or texture of turf causes numerous and all sorts of cuts, abrasions, and burns; and "turf-toe"????. Would seem to be maintenance-friendly but not athlete friendly! Richard L Matteo, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: rlmat Post Number: 344 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 02:15 pm:    Ralph is correct - according to my nephews' Dad, most of that stuff that is installed over concrete is "garbage". I tried to google "Nike Turf", but only came up with turf shoes. I'll try and look further - it's supposed to be some type of ground up rubber and sand and they use a special machine to "groom" it. Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 925 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:20 pm:    http://www.athleticturf.net/athleticturf/Athletic+Turf+News/Packers-going-to-DD-Grassmaster-System-at-Lambeau/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/393465 Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1048 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:34 pm:    Isn't that called "FavreStuf"? Don Harris CSI, CCS, CCCA, AIA Senior Member Username: don_harris Post Number: 229 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:34 pm:    http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html3month/1990-95/9111.Tally.AthleticTurf.html Prescription athletic turf Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 926 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:37 pm:    Not any more - it's now Mr. Rodger's stuff. Butch Rowe Junior Member Username: browe Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 03:41 pm:    We are completing our fifth synthetic turf field in three years and have learned a considerable amount. Synthetic turf is appealing because it can be played on constantly without damage. A grass field cannot. Turf is no longer installed over pavement, rather it is installed over aggregate base for drainage. Modern turf fields include an infill of rubber granules and sand that provide a G-max (measurement of shock absorbtion) very close to that of grass. Turf fields do get hotter than grass. Irrigation heads should be provided at the perimeter to cool the turf on hot days. A good source for information is the Synthetic Turf Sports Field Construction Manual available from American Sports Builders Association at www.sportsbuilders.org. Anne Whitacre, FCSI CCS Senior Member Username: awhitacre Post Number: 898 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, September 01, 2009 - 08:47 pm:    the athletic fields in my neighborhood (in southern California) are all synthetic and were installed over a fine-grained drainage mixture and sand. they are used every day for something; need little maintenance and apparently are now the standard in LA County for new facilities. Nathan Woods, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: nwoods Post Number: 307 Registered: 08-2005 Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 01:18 pm:    The following is a response from a PA in my office that has done a lot of school projects involving sports fields (in Southern California): "Health Risks - You could get into a twenty-four hour debate on "potential health risks" for artificial turf, and still end up nowhere. Original complaints about the rubber infill were that it was made out of old tires, and toxic. Tests claimed a 50 pound kid would have to eat 100 pounds of the pellets in a relatively short time span to run into trouble, and you breathed more rubber particles walking a block down the street. The latest concern was that there was trace amounts of lead in the brightly-colored turf that had lead in it (more in turf that was older), which is encapsulated and therefore disputed in whether it was any danger. All the (reputable) manufacturers have or are in the process of removing lead from all their color formulations now. Heat island - Yes, the fields get hotter than natural grass. There are infill mixes that are lighter in color to supposedly reduce this, but mostly you're just supposed to use the cooling system prior to using the fields in the afternoon. Durablity: The artificial fields hold up very well. The levelness of the field and the consistency of the surface aren't something anyone can maintain in a grass field unless you have a grounds crew the level of a professional sports franchise. The simple math is that no school can afford the maintenance or downtime required for re-seeding for a natural grass field at a school where fields are used 10-11 months a year for 6+ hours a day. At lots of schools the fields are even rented to outside groups after hours, and no one will rent the natural grass field if there isn't any grass left alive on it. Summary: I'm personally a big fan of natural grass, but even I have to admit that the artificial turf is pretty impressive at this point. The stuff we have going in now looks great and performs well." David Axt, AIA, CCS, CSI Senior Member Username: david_axt Post Number: 1059 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, September 02, 2009 - 02:49 pm:    Here in the Pacific Northwest many schools are tearing up their natural grass fields and installing Field Turf artificial grass. http://www.fieldturf.com/ Contrary to what you might think, it is actually hard to grow grass in our climate. Long hot dry summers with tons of rain in the fall, winter and spring. Personally I have given up on my own yard and let the weeds grow! Field Turf works well because it is durable (no bald spots) and no ponding/mud holes (assuming proper drainage underneath). Also their are no ruts or hidden "ankle breaker" holes. The artificial grass surface is even all over. I have heard complaints that Field Turf does get hot in the summer. I am told that you can't walk across it barefoot on a hot sunny day. I have also heard that there is some maintenance with the crumb rubber particles. The particles tend to scour in a downpour. As far as health issues, what about all the pesticides and herbicides that are sprayed on natural grass? Phil Kabza Senior Member Username: phil_kabza Post Number: 399 Registered: 12-2002 Posted on Saturday, September 05, 2009 - 12:34 pm:    We've specified artificial turf for our local school district at their request. I believe it's important for design professionals to provide reliable information to their clients ... and let them decide - especially given the issues of sports injuries. Butch's comments above parallel our experience. Installation costs are high, but the savings in maintenance costs have been significant, and the district still prefers articificial turf after 5 years of experience. Some taxpayers went into orbit over the initial cost. But then, some of our community's taxpayers go into orbit over everything; it's hard to get some them happy about having schools at all.