Update on Drywall Watch-out

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Author Message Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 963 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 03:29 pm:    Can't locate the old thread on this, but Wow! this must be getting to be something!! http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/18/chinese.drywall/index.html (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 06:48 pm:    As an intern architect I noticed that our MEP consultants specified domestically manufactured castings for plumbing fittings exclusively. When I finally asked one of them to explain this restriction he told me that many foreign manufacturers where held to no particular standards for their products including porosity of the casting. Then he asked me if I would object to having porous gas piping fittings in my home. The fact is, in our global economy, we will continue to see problems like Ralph has shown us unless we 1) enact restrictions that will be seen as politically inconvenient even though they are done strictly for the well being of the populace or 2) Make ourselves aware of the possibility of such problems in an industry unregulated in some areas of the world and vote with our dollars. In other words, we (design professionals, contractors, owners, everybody) must really consider the whole cost of our decisions and not focus only on the lowest first cost. Note that this report dealt primarily with residential construction in Florida which, if it is anything like Texas, has codes which probably do not have much to say about residential building beyond wind storm and immediate life safety matters. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 662 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:36 pm:    on most of our domestic projects we restrict the use of foreign manufactured products - the only exception being if the product is proprietary and is only manufactured abroad and only if the MSDS has been reviewed and approved by a professional engineer hired by the Building Owner...since 99% of our projects are privately funded, I don't believe in equality for all. Jerome J. Lazar, RA, CCS, CSI, SCIP Senior Member Username: lazarcitec Post Number: 663 Registered: 05-2003 Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:50 pm:    Ralph, there have been so many news articles on the Chinese drywall issues in Florida, that we can't keep up with them, for those interested South Florida Business Journal had a extensive article last week and for those interested try googling Lenar Corp, So Kendall Construction, and WCI Communities and Chinese Drywall, those two developers seem to be getting hit the hardest. Also U of Florida and FL Dept of Health are good sources for info. http://www.doh.state.fl.us/environment/community/indoor-air/drywall.html Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 171 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 09:48 am:    Vancouver Sun in BC also did a report on Chinese drywall imported thru the Port of Vancouver between 2001 and 2007. Product may have spread as far east as Toronto with all the same results as Florida. Class action lawsuits are starting to fly. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 172 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 10:18 am:    Report from the Vancouver Sun Shortcut to: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Toxic+Chinese+drywall+accused+health+problems/1377648/story.html Helaine K. Robinson CSI CCS CCCA SCIP Senior Member Username: hollyrob Post Number: 359 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 07:44 pm:    04/11/2009 AP IMPACT: Chinese drywall poses potential risks http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090411/ap_on_bi_ge/chinese_drywall Doug Frank FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 255 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 06:54 pm:    Interestiing story on CBS News about drywall and how the "Problem" may extend to some US manufactured drywall as well. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/23/national/main5749657.shtml?tag=stack Doug Frank FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate FKP Architects, Inc. Houston, TX Tim Werbstein, AIA, CSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tim_werbstein Post Number: 16 Registered: 09-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 07:46 am:    I don't see in this article any problems or suspicions noted for US manufactured drywall. George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 497 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 10:35 am:    Does the problematic Chinese drywall indicate that it is manufactured according to ASTM C1396? George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Doug Frank FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: doug_frank_ccs Post Number: 256 Registered: 06-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 10:53 am:    The actual news story I watched on CBS National news specifically mentioned two major US drywall manufacturers whose products had shown similar problems as the chinese material (even mentioned names that I won't repeat here). I figured the article in the link would include all that information. The only text in the article that implies a US problem is the headline "US: Chinese drywall corrosioin linked" One specific example showed a home not in the south where the manufacturer's name was visible on the drywall and it wasn't chinese. I wish I had more facts; wish the linked article was more complete. Doug Frank FCSI, CCS, SCIP Affiliate FKP Architects, Inc. Houston, TX Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1104 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:08 am:    Oldie but goodie-- http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/18/chinese.drywall/index.html New one today-- http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09328/1015877-84.stm?cmpid=lifestyle.xml Ellis C. Whitby, AIA, PE, CSI, LEEDŽ AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 02:01 pm:    Doug is correct: Here is a link to the CBS report which specifically mentions US produced drywall. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/23/cbsnews_investigates/main5752469.shtml It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 03:30 pm:    I was going to ask about this, but see a thread has already started. A courthouse that we provided architectural services is currently under construction. One of the judges saw the CBS report and sent an email to the project team asking for reassurance about the gypsum board. One of the suggestions by the team was to get random gypsum board samples tested ... but my question was "what is an 'acceptable' sulfur offgas level, if any" that can be present in the board without causing deterioration, because even though testing may give us a number, what does that number exactly mean? I've been trying to google as many different variations of that questions as I can, but I'm not finding anything that tells the answer. Can anyone help point me to a website or information that can help answer that question. Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 498 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 04:46 pm:    Tracy- The State of Florida website linked above had a fairly extensive study called "Tab A - an elemental study of drywall" that seemed to address your question. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO Nina Giglio Senior Member Username: ngiglio Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2006 Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 04:55 pm:    Much of the contaminated product was 1/2", thus it didn't show up as frequently in commercial projects. It is my understanding the many of the major mfg purchased and rebranded - this is not illegal - the products with their label, so it may not have been manufactured domestically anyway. Most of the major manufacturers also have comeout with statements about the contaminated products and many have links and documents on their sites. Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 288 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:52 am:    Thanks, George! Reading the executive summary, it indicates that the reports are preliminary information and that a comprehensive exposure and risk assessment will be carried out ... so it sounds like we haven't heard the last of all this yet. Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Ron Lindow (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 09:39 am:    In reading some of the articles regarding chinese drywall it appears sulfur is a large part of the problem. In testing, even the "domestic" manufacturers include some amount of sulfur. Logically, it appears reasonable for sulfur to be in synthetic gyp since its a byproduct of coal burning power plants. Therefore maybe the question should be "Is sulfur an acceptable byproduct in drywall? If so, what should the maximum limits be for sulfur? John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1137 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 04:30 pm:    Chemically, gypsum is calcium sulfate, so there's lots of sulfur in drywall. To what extent other forms of sulfur occur in naturally-occurring deposits of mineral gypsum I don't know, but it seems possible that this could be the case. Maybe its more and maybe its less than flue-gas desulfurization gypsum. It is not clear at all, from what I read, what chemical form the sulfur in the suspect gypsum is in, though rotten egg smell is associated with hydrogen sulfide. Are there any chemists out there? Richard Howard, AIA CSI CCS LEED-AP Senior Member Username: rick_howard Post Number: 226 Registered: 07-2003 Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:06 am:    ASTM is developing a new standard to identify corrosive gypsum board. http://astmnewsroom.org/default.aspx?pageid=1932 Tracy Van Niel, FCSI, CCS Senior Member Username: tracy_van_niel Post Number: 289 Registered: 04-2002 Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 03:15 pm:    Thanks for posting the link to the new ASTM standard, Richard. We will need to keep track of this as it develops. Just as an fyi, the manufacturer of the gypsum board for the courthouse we are working on indicates the following in its follow up letter regarding our project. Quoted from the letter: "Leading scientific engineering firms have found elemental sulfur is the marker for defective Chinese wallboard and the problems some of it creates. A third-party engineering firm has tested a number of samples of our wallboard and found no detectible levels of elemental sulfur in the samples. These test results have been confirmed by other scientists". Tracy L. Van Niel, FCSI, CCS George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 499 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 03:45 pm:    John- I'm not a chemist, but to me the difference seems to be the "elemental sulfur" in the above quote is the bad stuff, and the sulfur that is part of the compound calcium sulfate is the okay stuff. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO David J. Wyatt Senior Member Username: david_j_wyatt_csi_ccs_ccca Post Number: 130 Registered: 07-2005 Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 05:29 am:    After reading the above posts, what is a reasonable spec provision to protect our clients from experiencing this problem? "Provide gypsum board containing no elemental sulfur" ? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:09 am:    I was just considering that same question. How about "Provide gypsum board manufactured by a member of GA."? According to their recent position paper, their mfr's are free of this problem. George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 501 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:12 am:    For what it is worth: http://www.gypsum.org/pdf/Gypsum_Association_Comments_on_Chinese_Wallboard_Issue.pdf George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Cannon Design - St. Louis, MO John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1144 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 01:49 pm:    We don't really know that it's elemental sulfur, do we? And how much elemental sulfur--or the problem compound of it--is normally in mined and flue-gas desulfurization gypsum? Zero is a very small number. I'd really like to see the gypsum manufacturers tackle this in a meaningful way. Julia H. Hall New member Username: julia_hall Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2009 Posted on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 08:36 am:    We have been asked by clients to addressed this issues in specs. It has always been our practice to list manufacturers, which has at least kept us with domestic suppliers. The ASTM C 1396 standard for gypsum board does not address the "purity" of the gypsum core, so we really can't rely entirely on that. Perhaps a bit vague - but some of the issues raised by this forum have not been addressed to my complete satisfaction - I've added the following in the "Quality Assurance" article. "A. Source Limitations: Provide products manufactured within the United States from materials free of sulfur, formaldehyde or other deleterious chemicals. Natural gypsum ore shall be mined in North America. Synthetic (Byproduct) gypsum shall be pure calcium sulfate from domestic sources."