Refurbish to Like New Condition

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Author Message George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 604 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:33 am:    What do you think about this note: "Refurbish to like new condition"? (Regarding exterior doors in this case, but could be anything for the purposes of this discussion) It's on a set of drawings by a top-notch architectural firm. I'm arguing that it is too vague and doesn't really tie the contractor to anything measurable - especially when you are replacing parts - where do you stop. They claim it is definitive and has worked for them in the past. Thoughts? Suggestion for improvement? Or am I just being too much of a persnickety specifier, and should I keep my "knows" out of it and stick to hardware? George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Ralph Liebing, RA, CSI, CDT Senior Member Username: rliebing Post Number: 1257 Registered: 02-2003 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:42 am:    George, are you suggesting that we can just say things like, "Paint", "Erect", or even just "build" as our ENTIRE spec? George A. Everding, AIA, CSI, CCS, CCCA Senior Member Username: geverding Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:58 am:    No, Ralph. It would be "Build until we are satisfied". George A. Everding AIA CSI CCS CCCA Ingersoll Rand Security Technologies St. Louis, MO Lisa Goodwin Robbins, RA, CCS, LEED ap Senior Member Username: lgoodrob Post Number: 140 Registered: 08-2004 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 10:58 am:    George, if the work includes a large quantity of something (like exterior doors), have the contractor provide an on site mock up to use as a sample of acceptable work results. Perhaps a schedule of what needs to be done to each item should be required as well. This works well with a unit price approach. If it's a single (and singular) item, then you might need a preconstruction meeting to set expectations. - J. Peter Jordan (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 11:52 am:    I think it might work where all of the doors of each type are in about the same condition--e.g., all need painting and replacing lockset to comply with accessibility requirements. I don't think it would work for work that is to be publically bid. I did work on a school several years back that dated back to the 1940s. Primary goal was updating for accessibility, but there were other issues as well. There were a variety of door types, several different door thicknesses, and a variety of lockset types. Some needed refinishing, others did not. I don't know what the architect specifically did, but I would have scheduled doors needing work and coded them with a general description of what needed to be done (replace door leaf, replace door knob, refinish existing, etc.). I really like the idea of a door mockup. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 479 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 02:00 pm:    reˇfurˇbish / verb: to repair and make improvements to (something, such as a building) They are refurbishing [=renovating] the old house; They sell refurbished computers. [=old computers that have been repaired so that they are in good condition] Refurbishing to like new condition is subjective and open to interpretation. As the definition above notes it may be more appropriate to use "good condition." I agree with George, it is hardly measureable but apparently the contractor(s) who performed the refurbishment for Top Notch Architects, LLC did an admirable job in making a silk purse out of a pigs ear. I think there are degrees of refurbishment. Is refurbishment the same as restoration? If I refurbish a hollow metal door, can I simply prepare the substrate, repaint, and replace the latching device. Basically, how deep do I go in preping the door for repainting. Do I fill dents if not specifically directed? Do I simply refurbish the doors to good condition. Good being subjective. My good is not necessarily my neighbors good. Wayne Yancey Senior Member Username: wayne_yancey Post Number: 480 Registered: 01-2008 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 02:20 pm:    Refurbishment (Restoration) can be as simple as light cleaning to remove disfiguring dirt or grime, such as on the surface of a painting, or it may include near complete rebuilding or replacement, as might be the case with old automobiles or furniture. The main goal of restoration is to "restore" the original appearance or functionality of a piece. There is a lot of difference between restoring and repairing. You may achieve functionality with a repair, but restoring an item properly is an art-form. Finishes might/may be stripped and redone, but it is essential that the original patination is retained, if possible. Stripping is only done as a last resort, especially with antique furniture. Engines might be rebuilt with new parts as necessary, or holes in a [silver] pot might/may be patched. Restorers (refurbishers) are often trained craftspersons, such as furniture makers, mechanics, or metalsmiths. Source: Wikipedia Sheldon Wolfe Senior Member Username: sheldon_wolfe Post Number: 507 Registered: 01-2003 Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 02:42 pm:    I remember running into this in a prior life, when I was a newbie specifier. I kept telling the project architect that wasn't enough information, and he kept telling me that was all there would be, they had done it many times before, and it worked. That's the way it went out, and surprise - it did work. I suspect it was due to a history of doing it that way, and all concerned had an unwritten understanding of what it meant. That's a nice way to do business when it works. Not so much when you get a new contractor who doesn't share the understanding. Andy (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted on Monday, August 01, 2011 - 02:40 pm:    From past GC experience and supplier experience, I cringe when I read " Reburbish like new" in a spec. Especially when no one was around when the doors were new. I would love to see an allowance for this work. Paul Gerber Senior Member Username: paulgerber Post Number: 78 Registered: 04-2010 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 10:40 am:    What? Ya mean my PM for a renovation project that said "Patch and make good." isn't up to industry standards? LOL It's like that seemingly popular section I see every once in a while in other people's PM's...Section 10900 Manufactured Specialties which contain everything from area well grating to expansion joint covers to integrated door opening assemblies...and typically whatever is contained in this Section doesn't have enough detail to help you fight your way out of a wet paper bag, let alone a court room!! Ride it like you stole it!!! Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 290 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 12:41 pm:    But once it is gone, you can never get back that "new door smell". Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEEDŽ AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 112 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 01:35 pm:    Don't they make a door handle hanger to bring back that "new door smell"? ;-) Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1288 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 01:52 pm:    Could you substitute a "new car smell" one? Or would that take a Substitution Request form? Ellis C. Whitby, PE, CSI, AIA, LEEDŽ AP Senior Member Username: ecwhitby Post Number: 113 Registered: 03-2003 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 02:08 pm:    Depends: is the "new car smell" for a Woodie? Lynn Javoroski CSI CCS LEEDŽ AP SCIP Affiliate Senior Member Username: lynn_javoroski Post Number: 1289 Registered: 07-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 02:17 pm:    Well, are the doors "woodies" or metal or ? We often specify FRP or stainless steel doors/frames for some labs. And what if the doors are aluminum? Are they anodized or organically coated? What would the "refurbishing" be like for each type of door? For wood, it might include sanding, thereby perhaps producing that "new door smell". For HM, I'm not sure there is a smell other than paint. (which, with low VOC's might not even be there). But for aluminum, FRP or stainless, I don't really know what would have to be done to restore them to a "like new" condition. Which does bring us back full circle. I think you need to specifically state what the expectations are; what steps are required to restore the doors, since it will likely be different for each type of door, if not, as stated above, for each individual door. Steven Bruneel, AIA, CSI-CDT, LEED-AP Senior Member Username: redseca2 Post Number: 291 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 03:09 pm:    Ideally you would have an in place mock-up of a reburbished door assembly that was accepted by the Owner as a control sample. Or perhaps several if there was a lot of variety in the doors and what was wrong with them. Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Monday, August 08, 2011 - 02:14 pm:    When I worked for a contracting firm we ran into similar specs several times. We always asked for clarification - Our RFI would stae something like "please supply a sample finished product to match or a set of photographs clearly depicting the desired results". About half the time the answer would be "just make it look almost new". Yikes. We never had a problem, but IMO it's far too vague for a bid project. All bidders end up throwing darts at a different board and the successful sub has a wonderful time explaining the work to his foreman - who then has to explain it to the worker bees. OTOH it works fine on a negotiated job where everyone is involved from the get-go. But on a large bid project the sub who has to perform the work is put in a lose/lose position. Without precise clarification (unless we had a close relationship with the design team and owner) I would decline to bid. ken hercenberg Senior Member Username: khercenberg Post Number: 89 Registered: 12-2006 Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 09:32 am:    Hi George. My guess is that it could work if they've done work with that Contractor before. If there's a new shark in the waters, they may not have as good a result. Did anyone bother to define what the condition of the doors were when they were new? Would the original condition meet current Code? I recently did a restoration project where the exterior doors were originally beautiful stained wood with glass and ornamental metalwork. The wood and metal portions eventually were painted (and then repainted numerous times over the years). You get the picture. The Drawing note was "Restore to original condition." The state historical society got involved when the doors were discarded during selective demolition and replaced with very nice faux historic doors made of painted metal and glass. Thankfully, I left town right about that point. John Bunzick, CCS, CCCA, LEED AP Senior Member Username: bunzick Post Number: 1338 Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 04:24 pm:    Whenever I had this kind of work, I would specify the details of the expected work. Such as (simplified): strip existing finish, patch holes bigger than 1/8 inch with matching filler, patch holes bigger than x inch with dutchman of matching species, refinish with three coats of urethane varnish--or something to that effect. If doors are all roughly in the same condition, that should be sufficient. Jim Sliff Senior Member Username: jim_sliff Post Number: 87 Registered: 08-2010 Posted on Friday, August 26, 2011 - 11:38 am:    John's approach is, IMO, a better overall approach than "refurbish (I've also seen "restore" and "renew" used) to like-new condition". "Like new" is open to interpretation, specifically "functionally", "aesthetically", or "like it would be right out of the box (or mill, or whatever), and a sneaky sub could grab that word "functionally" and run with it, saying " well, it works just like new (although it looks like crap). It'd be hard to prove him wrong. So specifying precise results without specifying exact procedures (e.g. patch holes to achieve same appearance as new work" as opposed to "patch holes with Uncle Bungo's Magic Filler Gunk" - since if the sub uses the Uncle's gunk and it flat doesn't work he's gonna get an extra) and leaving WHAT to use out of it (except for finish work, operable units and other items that have to look and/or work a very specific way) is essentially the same as "refurbish to like-new condition" - but without as many loopholes. FWIW there are many subs that bid jobs with a low price because they have becomes experts at combing specs for loopholes and omissions. I was called in on a 19- sewage treatment plant "refurbish" job on a military base 20 years ago to help get the contracting officer out of a jam; they'd used "refurbishing" language that got then in a huge jam with a smart contractor (this was an industrial coatings job, so the applicator was the prime contractor). I was able to negotiate them out of several items open to interpretation, but I couldn't help them where they'd left 99%of the immersion surfaces (the bulk of the job) out of the specs. The other bidders had included them with a system that was specified for a few small holding tanks, assuming all immersion surfaces would be refurbished with the same system. The contractor who was awarded the job didn't include things like huge digesters - because they weren't in the specs. The extra was more than the awarded contract. I workd with the Judge Advocate's office but we saw no way out of it. I mention this only because a project including "refurbishing" multiple items needs to be reviewed "under the microscope" and NOTHING left out. It may be advisable to bring in multiple consultants who know exactly what to look for, since Architects and Specifiers simply can't be expected to know everything about everything...